Qualified, but cut, what now?

[menloparkmom]

peege,
sorry you did not discover CC earlier, as many parents of bright, hard working students [ myself included] were fortunate to have done, but now that you HAVE found CC, take advantage of the wealth of information available here from fellow parents. I suggest that you will probably have to modify your "anti helicopter parent" mind set a bit in order to not make avoidable mistakes when your daughter applies to college. Unfortunately, learning all that one needs to know about the college application process can be a part time to full time job, and is, in my opinion, way to much for many students to be able to do, on top of a rigorous senior year course load, EC's. etc. especially for some highly focused, intelligent and, often more immature sons. I speak from experience. I managed my son's application process, and did all the basic college research initially so that he could concentrate on his studies. After reviewing the long list of colleges I had found, based on his test scores and interests, [with lots of help from CC], he decided where he wanted to visit, and apply, he filled out the applications, wrote the essays, but it was my job to let him know dates, deadlines, etc, so that he would have the best chance in this ridiculously competetive process. I advice you to let go your disappointment about what happened, and use CC as a gift to help you and your daughter avoid similar mistakes from happening.

[DRJ4]

Alternatively, Peege, you can join continue to raise your children as anti-helicopter parents and join those of us who don't look at it as a mistake to go to to a state university.

[Northstarmom]

Peege,
It's important for you to realize that you can't control whether your bright, capable kids get into top colleges. Part of what happens is a luck factor. The other part is what the kids themselves are willing to do to run with your talents.

Intelligent and capable as your S is, he didn't study that hard for his SATIIs, which was his mistake and possibly cost him an Ivy admissioon (though there's always the chance that even with 800 scores, he wouldn't have gotten in). That was his decision. Even if you had known how stiff the competition is for the top colleges, you couldn't have forced him to study. He may still have basically blown the tests off probably because he was convinced that with his excellent grades, he would be in at the Ivies.

In my opinion, you're hurting him by taking the blame for how he applied to colleges and how he didn't get into Ivies. If attending the best college possible was his dream, then he should have done a heckuva lot better job prepping for his SAT IIs and finding good match and safety schools.

It's also important to realize that many students are reading college guide books, studying avidly for college boards, using Google and other search engines to get tips on getting into the top colleges. Don't assume that the students who get in have parents who were finding out info for them or have GCs who were outstanding.

I know lots of things about the college process and even interview as an Ivy alum. I passed on many tips to my gifted, talented sons, and neither bothered to put them into use. They claimed that they wanted to go to top schools, but truth is, they both were a bit lazy -- too lazy to get grades up to their potential, too lazy to do the hard work of thoroughly researching colleges and rewriting their essays and applications until they were as good as they could do.

If it ends up that your son is unhappy at the U, do him a favor by letting him do the hard work of researching and applying elsewhere if he decides to transfer. It is, after all, his life. He can benefit by learning the value of doing what he is capable of to create the life he wants. He should not leave that up to Mommy.

[believersmom]

Okay, I simply cannot just read this thread without commenting.

Is there SOME way I can get some of you to promise to come back here in four years, read your comments and follow-up with updates?

U of MN, undergrad full-ride is a come-down??? I don't EVEN know what to say to that idea. Personally, I refuse to let my kid even apply to an Ivy for undergrad-in my NEVER humble opinion, it is a waste of good money in this day and age. Any midwestern or northeastern large state u is going to be just hunky-dory for under-grad; then hit the ivies for grad school and show 'em what they missed first go-round.

Peege, I mean no offense and believe me, I grasp the mama/papa bear syndrome (been accused many times myself); however, enough already. The fact is, your son WILL be miserable/unhappy or successful/happy if he DECIDES to be. I know you didn't ask my opinion (but why let that stop me now?) but force him to take responsibilty for his reaction and his future results. Sounds like you provided him with 18 years + of the best oportunities you could, time for HIM to make the lemonade. If the U of M is so lacking, why doesn't he sit the year out, let someone else get the scholarship money and re-apply next year to the sainted Ivies?

In the words of Forest Gump, "...and that's all I want to say about that."

[Mombot]

Reading this was really helpful, as my daughter has decided to use a similar strategy: apply to crazy reach schools and then our state U. as a backup. The difference is that I forced her to attend an honors student weekend at the U. earlier this month. She came back all excited about the U and she is willing to take the risk, understanding that if she doesn't get into any of her dream schools she's got a tremendous opportunity at the U. They take only 300 honors students each year out of a class of 5000 freshman. If she gets in there she's got a lot to be proud of.

I'm happy with her strategy. It's a terrific school. We looked at schools where she could get merit aid and to be frank, the other students didn't have enough drive to suit her. She wants to be pushed, and pushed hard, and we found that after the "brand name" schools that everybody wants, the state school is the next best place for driven, bright kids. The kids who have brains but can't afford private schools end up there.

[marite]

Mombot:

If the state U has rolling admissions, make sure she applies early! If she gets and early admission into the State U, which she is already excited about, she will be able to relax. She can then apply--or not--to some reach schools, without feeling undue pressure.

[NJres]

good grief, page 9 already? It's deja vu all over again. Did somebody point the OP to Andi's thread from last year? Did anyone suggest taking a gap year and reapplying to the reach schools? It can be done.

[JeepMOM]

Marite - great advice - my kiddo applied very early to rolling admissions state school - OOS - was her first choice - in early - all done (actually got in early at her 2 top choices - very happy kiddo - bonus - invite into honors program - even better - didn't look back.................

[tokenadult]

Personally, I refuse to let my kid even apply to an Ivy for undergrad-in my NEVER humble opinion, it is a waste of good money in this day and age. Any midwestern or northeastern large state u is going to be just hunky-dory for under-grad; then hit the ivies for grad school and show 'em what they missed first go-round.

I believe you when you say that that opinion was not humble. It's an opinion shared by a lot of people in my region of the country, but it's not a factually correct opinion for all college applicants in all places, because some college applicants

1) WILL find programs or opportunities at one or another Ivy that they would never find at any Midwestern state university, or

2) will pay much less to attend the Ivy, all costs considered, with Ivy need-based financial aid than they would at State U. (This, of course, depends on family income and whether the state university is in state or out of state.)

What I ask of my children is that they be active and curious when they are young, and gradually develop a sense of what they like to do and what kind of people they like to hang around with. What I promise them as their dad is that I will pay 100 percent of their expected family contribution at any school to which they gain admission that has a suitable program for them, and beforehand pay to my utmost ability for programs that help them pursue their interests while they are too young to work for money. I make lots of financial aid applications for K-12 programs--I just made another one today--and we fare pretty well in getting our children interesting learning opportunities that they like and that open their eyes to the outside world. We do all that at an affordable cost for an average middle-class Minnesota family. Different parents resolve these trade-offs in different ways, but on my part I want to encourage my children to maximize their learning in whatever environment they are in.

Thus, here, the plan is indeed to line up the U of MN as the "safety" school. It has a great honors program in its Institute of Technology that any young person should be proud to be part of. Young people who qualify for that program have a bright future ahead of them, because it is not trivially easy to get in. I suspect (but this is up to each of my children, not to me) that my oldest son and each of his younger siblings in turn will make some applications to some subset of "reach" schools with strong programs in some subject of interest to them at the time they apply to college. I may end up with four different kids going to four different schools, or I may end up with all four going to the U of MN, my alma mater. I expect them to take responsibility for seeking out ACCURATE information about important life choices, and living with the consequences of those choices with courage and dignity.

[tokenadult]

@NJres: a gap year and new applications applies to the case when an applicant got in nowhere and can still make fresh freshman applications. A young person who has already matriculated somewhere has exceptional possibilities of making a new freshman application to a few very forgiving undergraduate schools, or otherwise will need to make a transfer application. Either strategy is, in my opinion, a bad choice for the son of the OP, because he is already in a good school on good financial terms, and until he does some serious work in his college program, he is in no position to improve what school he can get into based on his high school record and test scores in hand. It's a different situation from that of Andi's son, so different advice applies.

[curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by mombot

We looked at schools where she could get merit aid and to be frank, the other students didn't have enough drive to suit her. She wants to be pushed, and pushed hard, and we found that after the "brand name" schools that everybody wants, the state school is the next best place for driven, bright kids. The kids who have brains but can't afford private schools end up there.

Did you mean you found that it was the best place for YOUR driven , bright kid? Or ALL driven, bright kids? If the former, I have no problem. If the latter, then you simply looked at the wrong schools.

There are scads of schools that offer merit aid that are far better than any large state school for some driven , bright students. I have one of them, and know several more. One size doesn't fit all, now does it?

[dadx3]

Carleton in particular is quite strong in placing students in good grad programs, and its undergraduate science students have won a good number of awards. One advantage of the LACs is that for faculty research they must use undergrads to help them, while at most research universities those opportunities go almost exclusively to graduate students. And in the past 10 years or so many of the top LACs have really beefed up their science lab facilities. Your S may have an advantage over other undergrads in the Physics Dept. at U of MN because he is in the Honors College. Good luck to him. It sounds like he has all the tools to do extremely well.

[Mudder's_Mudder]

No offense to your son intended, but I doubt he has any real idea at this early stage of his college experience just how much Univ. of Minn. has to offer him as a physics major.

First of all (and I'm certainly no expert; just a "talented amateur" ), UMinn is very good in the sciences, engineering, and math. Here's but one small example:
http://www.nnin.org/nnin_2006reu.html

As you can see, UMinn (Twin Cities) is one of the sites for the NNIN.

UMinn offers summer REUs in chemistry, physics, materials (interdisciplinary), and math (Duluth):
http://www.nsf.gov/crssprgm/reu/list...fm?unitid=5052
http://www.nsf.gov/crssprgm/reu/list...fm?unitid=5048
http://www.nsf.gov/crssprgm/reu/list....cfm?unitid=69
http://www.nsf.gov/crssprgm/reu/list...fm?unitid=5044

A cursory glance at their sites indicates no restriction against accepting their own undergrad students. As an honors college student, he would be well advised to try for a stellar freshman academic year and to nuture some prof/mentor relationships in order to increase his chances of acceptance for any of these REUs for summer 2007. The sooner he gets involved in serious research as an UG, the better positioned for grad school he will be.

After next summer, who knows? There are myriad summer internship opportunities for physics students. He doesn't even have to stay in Minn. If you look at the REU site lists, many of the schools he applied to offer REUs. If he wants to broaden his UG experience, he can even apply to REUs at some LACs. He should also look into Caltech's SURF program.

His dept. advisors and the uni's career services office can help steer him toward opportunities at national labs and other gov't agencies. Does UMinn offer internships/coops with industry?

Has he looked into UMinn's study abroad or semester exchange programs with other schools? One of my kids was in a state uni's honors program; included in the program was full funding for self-designed independent research abroad had he wanted to pursue it.

The important thing is for him not to squander the terrific opportunity he has. Good luck to him!

[sybbie719]

After reading though this thread and the overlapping thread kid is off... my thoughts about the last 2 yrs

To peege & Thinkingparent

I would recommend doing a search for Frecklybeckly: who posted a thread I am sad where she wrote:

I was sad when my brother showed me the Yale admitted students website, and then I was sad again when he got three packages in the mail (HYP) the same day I got 4 rejections and 2 waitlists. I offered to trade - he'd get two for the price of one. And then I was sad when I referred to something Yale-related and my dad implied it was my brother's turf, not mine. What a jab in the ribs.

So that's about it. I'm coping, but underneath the Maize and Blue faux enthusiasm is a very sad, waitlisted-at-Yale Becky.

she then wrote a follow-up thread:

Forget prestige; get real

Forget prestige; get real.

DON'T DISGREGARD PUBLIC SCHOOLING! Sure, they're not Harvard, but I don't see the huge difference, for most kids. My brother goes to Harvard and I to University of Michigan, and he and I are having equally enjoyable times. The thing is, though, he's kind of a math genius, having completed most of the undergrad math curriculum at Yale before applying to colleges. That's why Harvard is good for him - they have an extremely specialized and demanding math program for the top top math students, for kids who already have very specific needs and goals academically.

For the kids who don't have that, like, say, me, but do have interesting academic and extracurricular backgrounds and are looking to pursue their interests further in depth, a large public university is just the medicine. Obviously I'm (second reason) trolling for U of M since it's my school and I adore it, but I feel like I can generalize.

Big public universities are for motivated academics. Oh, and they'll give you a lot of money. (Tell your kids.)

If would also recommend doing a search for Evilrobot, who turned down Yale to accept a full ride at Vanerbilt and never looked back

I almost feel that there should be a required reading list of post that parents and kids should read before placing a pen to or typing a keystoke on an application. This way they could keep from setting themselves up for a possible let down. I know over the past few years we as parent have not always seen eye to eye on a number of topics in the admissions process, but from the years that I have been posting, two things have been repeated time and time again:

Love thy safety (or sure bet) school
Talk to your kids about the money.

I am going to link what I hope are a few really useful thread (many are listed as featured discussions) so that anyone new to the game could have a jumping off point because one thing I have seen over the past few admissions cycles is that the only thing that is certain in college admissions is the amount of uncertainty in the admissions process.


No Acceptances: One Kid's Story - A year later...

A year ago, Andi was picking up the pieces after her National Merit scholar son had received no acceptances from the 8 places where he applied. Now, Andi updates us on her son and the good news about how things worked out after he took a gap year.

No Acceptances: One Kid's Story - A year later...


[/i]My Dinner With An Admissions Officer [/i]

He believes way too many people are overly preoccupied with GPA's and standardized test scores. He believes these are almost always bright line tests, rarely anything more. Exceed the threshhold and the REAL review begins.


Most colleges today are concerned about putting together a well-rounded community and are not necessarily looking for well-rounded individual students. The elite colleges truly want "superstars" in many of the niche fields and EC's. Having said this, students who are well-rounded at a VERY HIGH LEVEL never go out of vogue

My Dinner With An Admissions Officer

What does it mean to "love your safety"?

This is surely the mantra of the Parents Forum... but what exactly does it mean, and what if the student DOESN'T love his safety?

What does it mean to "love your safety"?


Just How Hard Admission Can Be

Admissions stats provide a reality check - even very high-scoring students have a low probability of admission at some schools.

Just How Hard Admission Can Be


"Whoever has the most APs wins"

Post # 49 by Ben Jones, College Rep for MIT is definitely worth a read:

Based on the thousands of apps I saw last year both in selection committee and as a reader, I can tell you that the average # of AP's for admitted kids was 5 or 6 (that's total for all 4 years of HS - i.e. 1-2 per year if evenly distributed). Many admits (most likely the majority) had no college classes. The most common AP's taken were in math and science (no surprise, it's MIT). The overwhelming majority got 4's and 5's on all tests.

I'll pause here to add that I frequently saw kids with perfect SAT scores and perfect grades and a gazillion AP classes get rejected. Why? Because often these kids knew how to grind, but brought nothing else to the table. And that's not who we're looking for at MIT. We admit kids who show genuine passion. Sure AP's can be one of many passion indicators - but I emphasize one of many.

"Whoever has the most APs wins"

These are some of the many threads that are full of good sound advice that will help you and your student get through the process, lets them know that they are not alone and in the end will show them that they will end up where they need to be and it will all work out.

[jmmom]

What a great post, sybbie. I'm thinking it's deserving of a sticky, or maybe at least start a separate thread. Can't think of exactly what you'd title it. but it definitely includes a lot of critical learning and perspective on the admissions process. Thanks.

Maybe a title along the lines of CC Wisdom Gained From the Trenches? Classics.....?