Cornell students game the system

barrons · 10-11-2007, 01:58 PM

"Cornell University’s unusual system of publicizing its median course grades may have backfired, according to a paper posted yesterday at the Social Science Research Network.

Since 1997, Cornell has revealed its courses’ median grades on a public Web site. The sunshine policy was intended to give students and their potential employers a fuller understanding of exactly what it means to earn, for example, an A- in Animal Science 216 (“Nutrition of the Cat”).

As Cornell’s Faculty Senate put it in the 1996 resolution that created the system, “A grade of B- in a course of substantial enrollment in which the median was C+ will often indicate a stronger performance than, e.g., a B+ in a large course in which the median is A. More accurate recognition of performance may encourage students to take courses in which the median grade is relatively low.”

The researchers found that after the median-grade Web site was introduced, upper-level courses with higher median grades began to increase their share of enrollment. They also found that students of lower ability (as measured by SAT scores) appear to be especially sensitive to information about courses’ median grades. The system also appears to have contributed to a general increase in grade inflation at the university, the scholars write."

Marian · 10-11-2007, 07:36 PM

I think the system will adjust itself back.

Of course the median grades in upper-level courses are higher. These courses are populated entirely by students who are majors in the subject or in related fields and who have done extensive previous work in the subject. The people who are bad at this particular subject have already been weeded out.

Students who sign up for those upper-level courses in the hope of getting higher grades will soon find that they are not qualified to do the work and that their grades will be well below the median.

afan · 10-11-2007, 08:21 PM

I doubt it will adjust back, nor should it. If people get high grades in a given course, any rational college student will prefer this to a course that gives low grades. One could try to keep this information secret, but all that does is reward those with good detective skills to seek out these courses.

The only response from the University should be to include mean grade information for each course on all transcripts.

I remember a version of this study that looked at behavior of economics students. Of all people, who else would pay more attention to the reward structure embedded in the grading system?

barrons · 10-11-2007, 10:32 PM

Marian, I think you need to reread the info.

corranged · 10-11-2007, 10:56 PM

Well of course that happened. I find it hard to believe Cornell didn't realize that would happen.

soccerguy315 · 10-12-2007, 02:13 AM

I know some people at my school who before every semester, literally spend hours trying to find the courses outside of their major, and the courses in their major with multiple professors, where they have the best chance to get A's. Instead of taking a potentially interesting class, they choose something they don't care at all about, but feel confident that they can get an A.

a terrible way to go through college, IMO.

Lost in translat · 10-12-2007, 06:19 AM

Which brings me to ask the following question(s):
When a student wants to transfer, does the college look at GPA only or whether the student has taken challenging courses? Ditto for graduate school applications.

Marian · 10-12-2007, 08:08 AM

I have a kid at Cornell.

There is an additional fact that the original post did not make clear -- with a few notable exceptions, the higher medians tend to be in upper-level courses.

Thus, kids who are trying to game the system have to do so by taking larger numbers of upper-level courses. But to succeed in those courses, you better have done well in lower-level courses in the same subject.

The median grade in an upper-level course in microbial genetics or partial differential equations might be an A, but that doesn't mean that your average undergraduate who is majoring in an entirely different field has a chance at getting a decent grade in the course.

originaloog · 10-12-2007, 08:29 AM

The Cornell press release was a bit selfserving. If you analyze the published data you find that there are few courses with a median grade as low as C+. Even in the math and physical science courses the majority of median grades are B+ or better.

Marian I do not agree that higher level courses have higher grades. Here is a sampling. General Chem(B-), Calc1(B+), Fundamentals of Physics(B+), Intro Psych(A), Intro Philosophy(B+), Intro Macro Econ(B+) and with the exception of Spanish(B+) all intro languages have a median grade of A- or better. And while I went thru the list quickly, I did not notice any intro course with a grade lower than B-.

And no, as a proud Cornell grad I am not a Big Red basher.

newmassdad · 10-12-2007, 08:43 AM

So, are the students at fault for seeking higher grades? Or are others at fault (such as law school admissions folks or employers like IBs and consultants) who blindly compare GPAs from all majors regardless of course difficulty and such?

IMHO, these students are being rational consumers.

It is because of situations like this that colleges need other ways to identify the very top performers, through the awarding of various honors like junior year selection to PBK, nomination for national awards like Goldwater or Udall, and such. For things like this, most colleges also look at course load difficulty.

JHS · 10-12-2007, 08:51 AM

Newmassdad has it right that the problem lies outside the university. But giving recognition to a few superstars won't change anything for the vast majority of Cornell students who have to worry that their potential employers or grad school admissions committees won't bother to check the grade information on 40 courses x however many students are applying to tell that the B in Game Theory was really the equivalent of an A- in Ethical Issues in Fieldwork.

I don't know what the solution is, though. Grading systems should matter, and I don't think you can take discretion away from the professors as far as grading is concerned. Cornell does the right thing by posting the information, but corranged and others are right to think that the faculty's expectation for how the information would be used was a bit unrealistic.

doubleplay · 10-12-2007, 09:14 AM

Do all schools vary the requirements for Dean's List and graduation with Honors? IMO, that's very telling; says something about what the university believes about it's own grading scales.

Ex: at S's school:

Deans List Requirements:
Accounting 3.5
Engineering 3.2
Liberal Arts and Science 3.75

newmassdad · 10-12-2007, 09:25 AM

doubleplay,

At my D's uni, dean's list is uniform, and about 1/3 of the students make it, but departmental honors for graduation requirements are set by department, and vary from 3.2 to 3.5 if I recall correctly.

Problem is does anyone on the outside pay attention to these distinctions? I think not.

marny1 · 10-12-2007, 09:29 AM

So- you're going to tell me that kids at other "elite" schools don't take grades into consideration when registering for classes?? I think there is a certain tendancy of some parents to have a very idealistic and somewhat unrealistic view of your kids time at college. ( I know - your kids don't go to frat parties and they never get drunk-- they're too busy studying )
For those kids planning to go to Law school and other grad programs, I am sure they are smart enough to figure out which course or two may help their GPA or to counteract for those courses that they must take as requirements for their major where the grade may be lower.
My d is a senior at Cornell and is planning to apply to Law School. She had many specific courses she needed to take to fulfill requirements- so there was no "gaming" there. But in terms of electives- alot of things go into the decision of what courses to take such as scheduling conflicts, papers vs. tests , teachers reputation and grades-- so what's the big deal!!

Do you really think it's different at any other college??

doubleplay · 10-12-2007, 09:36 AM

newmassdad,
Probably not. But if someone were to actually WANT to determine where a student's performance is relative to the "curve", it would be a lot easier to look at the universities Deans List/Honors requirements rather than look at each and every class the student took and figure out how his grades stack up to the average. That seems like an awful lot of work.

As far as employers go, judging from what H says, what is considered a good GPA does vary by discipline and school. Of course, most of the people he hires come from engineering schools in the southeast region, and he's somewhat familiar with how rigorous their grading standards are (for example, a lower GPA from Georgia Tech usually compares very favorably to higher GPAs from some other schools).