Revival of Middle Class Black Posters

[Northstarmom]

"Similarly, when I was in college, one student asked why all the black students sat together. I responded "we're not sitting together any more than the White students are." And in fact, our "black" table tended to be the intergrated table because there were two or three White friends who routinely joined us for dinner."

Yes, there has been some research that indicates that black kids on mainstream campuses are have more friends who aren't their race, and also tend to be in more organizations in which they're the minority than this is true for white kids.

People in general simply don't notice that on college campuses, the white kids tend to sit together and many choose to socialize together via joining Greek organizations that are exclusively white.

A couple of years ago, I was at a meeting at Harvard, my alma mater, and afterward met with some black students in one of the dining halls. I imagine that our all black table may have stood out to an onlooker. However, most of the students at other tables were with people of their own race. I also noticed that the students at my table were frequently sought out by nonblack friends and acquaintances seeking to talk to them about other activities the black students were involved in.

That was interesting to me as was the fact that the nonblack students clearly felt comfortable approaching our table, and the black students didn't feel the need to apologizing for having some kind of relationship with students who aren't black. Back in the old days when I was in college, campuses were more polarized than they are now. I think that's because there was so much hostility directed toward black students on mainstream colleges back then. For instance, I can remember reading in the Harvard Crimson by an alum who was ranting that "semiliterate coloreds" were being admitted.

I imagine that even more polarization occurred on the many campuses that were forced to integrate because of federal mandate.

[Consolation]

At college in the 70s, as a white student, I remember being very surprised and uncomfortable with the degree of self segregation. My high school had fewer than 10 black students, and there was no "black table" in the lunchroom or anything like that. Two or three of the black students were casual at-school friends of mine. (Of course, I'm sure the black students had struggles that I knew nothing about. Just because everything looks nice on the surface doesn't mean that everything is hunk-dory.) At college, it was markedly different. Although we had only three "society" houses and no sororities, one of the three society houses was for black students only. Any white student who naively sat at a "black" table in the dining hall was pointedly ignored. And so forth. According to some of the black students I knew, there was quite intense pressure from the black student community to avoid socializing with whites, and to maintain a separatist stance. One very witty black student I knew called it Nouveau Racism (akin to Nouveau Riche). Many, if not most, of the black students came from middle and upper-middle class backgrounds and integrated suburban schools where they had been in the distinct minority. They were in the uncomfortable position of not being "black enough" according to some, and so were in the process of redefining themselves in the context of the political movements of the day.

[SuperMom_I_Aint]

Whoo-weee!! Major props to Triguena for opening us up for business again and Shrinkrap for giving me a "heads-up!" (long deep sigh of pleasure) -- it's good to be back.

Now. Re: the current debate on minority fit and fashion. Turns out other minds have been hard at work on the same question. Found a prof out at UCBerkeley who's been hard at work finding answers to lots of our questions. For what it's worth, here's her site w/an overview of the sorts of issues she's been mulling, Department of Sociology, University of California Berkeley

and here's a link to paper previously posted: http://www.sociology.columbia.edu/pdf-files/moore04.pdf

In the above, the author takes a look at relationships among/between blacks on an ivy league campus, and concludes that socioeconomic status and prior life experiences have more to do w/comfort level than ethnicity.

Personally, I'm intrigued. We worked so hard to get our kids ready for a "diverse" global community. Now, many have assimilated to the point that they shun the groups and institutions (Black Students Assoc) that gave some of us our hope, grounding, and opportunity. I wonder -- WILL they fare better? ARE they more prepared? Or have I set my girls up for a delayed nightmare reality where the glass slipper is shattered, the glass ceiling remains unbroken, and Prince Charming is MIA!

Re: biracial kids -- that's another topic I wrestle with. In terms of identity crises, my daughters (who attend school with several biracial children, as well as minority adoptees of majority parents), often lament that biracial kids have it easier. No one calls them an "oreo" because they literally ARE mixed. Black kids, however, who dance to the beats of their own drummers, are often reviled as "sell-outs." Worse even, is the fate of the "black" kid who may have varied ancestry back a generation or two. No departure from the party line is allowed. Woe to the black descendent of an Irishman who wears green on St. Paddy's Day! (unless they live in Boston - where I think it may be a law! ;-) )

So which is worse? Mixed? Mixed-Up? Does it matter? *sigh* I'm just praying my kid meets some nice kids of whatEVER heredity who will accept her for who she is.

p.s. I was pleasantly surprised recently, to find that I was being "sought" on the internet by a classmate from my old boarding school days. Upon our (telephone) reunion, after the initial enthusing, she surprised me by unloading a boatload of pent-up adolescent angst. Seems that we experienced our school days quite differently. She recounted feelings of terror, isolation, and immense depression as a blond haired, blue-eyed "minority" at our Caribbean Boarding school. Her ordeal was intensified by virtue of being a hated "American" (black americans were "cool"). She remembers hanging out with the small group of whites at school, with whom she did not necessarily have much in common. They were English or Canadian, and more accepted. She remembers being excluded from many social events and weekends. Apparently, I was kind to her, and she remembered. She remembered for Thirty years(!). I hope I gave no indication that despite her providing a well-aged photo, I had no recollection of our friendship. Sadly, she has not recovered from her shocking encounter w/life as a minority.

The above just agrees with other posters who have noted that segregation is not necessarily intentional, and goes both ways.

[mathmom]

I hope it's okay if I stop by the black table for a bit.

Technically speaking aren't many (most?) African Americans in this country bi-racial? I realize your experiences may be different if one parent clearly isn't African American, but most of the time out in the real world people don't know what your parents look like. Are kids in school really paying so much attention to what the parents look like? Don't you just get judged by the color of your skin? (Or not - most of the time I hope.)

[lje62]

I know it is not even close to being the same thing, but my youngest daughter ( who is 50% Swedish ) would like nothing more than to look like everyone else she goes to school with. In her eyes, she is ugly because she is so fair. She has very light colored skin, eyebrows, lashes and hair. I know that she gets picked on a little from some boys that call her an albino, mostly because of their age... sometimes when she was a baby, adults would ask me if she was albino..really she isn't THAT fair, but I thought it was a little rude and funny at the same time. I would just answer them back that her eyes would have to be pink to make her albino..
On the other hand, when she goes to Sweden, she looks like everyone there and kids stare at her when they hear her speak English so well

[Shrinkrap]

I haven't read all the responses yet but before I forget; My D actually CHOSE the name Orea at Girl Scout Camp and had to be told by a White counselor what that meant....I recall being named Pink when I went to Girl Scout Camp 40 years ago and my mom was FURIOUS.(For those who don't know, it's from an old movie about "passing"....and FWIW, I couldn't).

[Shrinkrap]

That should read Oreo and Pinky....

[threedaysgrace]

I'm a little confused. In reference to black females wanting diversity because of the difficulty in dating outside their race. I always thought the black male and white female was less socially accepted than black female and white male because I have heard so many rantings from black females in movies and real life (some of them my associates) about how "they" steal the few college-educated men that we have left.

Anyway I think that people who have a lot in common and have the same kind of background/story will gravitate toward each other. As a black person who has been pointed out as "acting white" I would be comfortable with someone who understands/ has been through this. But I also look for companions who have the same taste of music/movies/fashion which widens the racial spectrum I guess.

[Triguena]

wow-so glad this thread is revived!

All of your insights are wonderful. I do see a difference in my upbringing and my son's. He, like I, is a one of a handful of AA kids in his high school. He, like I, has mostly white friends. The difference is that I was always yearning for a social situation where the tight friendships I saw my parents forged with their black friends could be found.

The irony of this (with exquisite 20/20 hindsight) is that those bonds of my parents that I envied were made during their HCBU days. Came time for me to go to college and I decided against HCBU and in fact ended up at a small LAC with a miniscule black population. Not until grad school did I have a wide net of black friends/classmates.

I just really want my son to have the fun I had in grad school without the isolation I felt in college. He swears his life is different and that he and his friends don't see race anymore (yeah, just wait till that cop pulls you over for DWB...). Is that true? Do they really not see race?

Some in a previous post alluded to the importance of socioeconomic status. Reminds of the Tom Sowell book "The decreasing significance of race and the rising importance of class" (or something similar to that). I remember when that book was published in the 70s I actually joined a demonstration against the idea. Now I am not so sure......

To reply to the age old question of the "black table"---I analogize it to the "Cheers" phenomena. Sometimes you want to go (Sing it with me now) "where everybody knows your name." Call it a shared experience, call it a port in the storm but there is a comfort with familiarity.

Finally to reply to a previous post that questioned whether all black people in the US are of mixed race. Um, no. From the Dred Scott decision (octoons=slaves) to the Brylcream test ("a little dab will do ya"), we are a people of many shades bonded by the common experience of discrimination based on the color of our skin.

[SuperMom_I_Aint]

>>>Are kids in school really paying so much attention to what the parents look like? Don't you just get judged by the color of your skin? (Or not - most of the time I hope.)<<<

Hey there mathmom (*smiling* -- now THERE's a moniker that could NEVER be mine!)

I s'pose things are different depending on from whence one hails, but in our neck of the woods, I'm often surprised at the frequency and depth of discourse re: race relations my oldest has encountered in school. I spend half my time encouraged, and the other apprehensive.

At first I was shocked at the bald openness of references to race and race relations among my daughter's associates. But then I realized a few things:

1. Everybody notices differences. Weight, height, race, hair color. We're human, we notice. And it matters, initially - in terms of comfort level.

2. When I was a kid, we were just as forthright about differences, we joked about it just like my daughter and her friends do now. And we were proud of that ability, because we thought it made us better than our parents. We were above petty tensions and we were going to change the world.

3. Most of my D's friends are in something called a Gifted & Talented (GT) track. Teachers encourage frank classroom discussion and often spark such exchanges through the assignment of provocative texts.

4. We live in a part of the U.S. where there are probably more biracial and multiracial kids than anywhere else (due to an "experimental" planned community in the 60's). Consequently, kids are more tuned into that type of family unit. They tend to treat multiracial kids as a race all unto themselves with the freedom to move between multiple social groups.

Interestingly, based on my limited local observations, most upper middle income biracial kids tend to affiliate across groups, but date white. Most lower income biracial kids tend to affiliate and date black. Weird, huh? Someone oughtta do a study.

[owlice]

The Asian friend was recounting some incident, explaining that she was "the only Asian in the room and none of my friends were present."

Years ago, I was good friends with two brothers, first-generation American of Chinese parents; a friend of theirs from Hong Kong was visiting, and the four of us got together for dinner. As we were heading to Chinatown (NYC), the visiting friend said, "Owlice, I'll bet you think you're with three Chinese." I admitted that was the case, whereupon her reply was, "I'm with three Americans."

I can't say perspective is everything, but it certainly counts!

Apparently, I was kind to her, and she remembered. She remembered for Thirty years(!).

And she wanted you to know, even all these years later, how important your kindness was to her. It's amazing, isn't it, how we can do something that has such a lasting memory for someone else, and such an impact, yet we may not remember the incident at all?

We're human, we notice.

Sometimes, however, it takes a while. One school year, it wasn't until February that I noticed my S was the only white kid in his (elementary school) class. Yeah, I noticed... eventually...!

My best friend in ninth grade was black. (Still is, too, I'm sure. :-) ) This was back in the days of junior high schools for 7th-9th grade; we were headed to different high schools. The last day of school, we must have had some type of party or event, because we were outside and had a lot of free time. She and I took a long walk, all around the football field, the baseball diamonds, the whole school yard; I think we both knew we wouldn't see each other again. (It never occurred to either one of us to exchange phone numbers; I don't know why, except that I look at my S the 9th grader and know he doesn't have any of his classmates' phone numbers, either. [Wait until junior year!]) We eventually walked back to where most of the other people were, including the principal, who made some comment about how good it was to see a black girl and a white girl walking together. Seriously ticked me off, that comment; she was my friend, not a skin color. Who else would I be walking around with?!

[Northstarmom]

"Technically speaking aren't many (most?) African Americans in this country bi-racial?"

Probably, but I've never seen stats on this.

Still, the ones who are bi-racial because they have a nonblack parent -- and who look biracial (light skin and/or eyes, narrow nose, straightish hair) are treated differently by whites and blacks.

They are considered by many people of both races to be more attractive, and have an easier time getting good jobs, etc. This isn't just conjecture, but also is supported by research.

[tokenadult]

I once read most of a whole book on racial definitions.

Amazon.com: Who Is Black?: One Nation's Definition: F. James Davis: Books

I see it is still in print. As I recall, the book mentions at least one country in the world in which the "one drop rule" operates the other way around from the way it operated in the United States: in other words, in that other country, a person with ancestors, however few, traceable to Europe is counted as "white," even if all the other ancestors of that person are traceable in recent history to tropical Africa.

As for what Northstarmom just posted about opinions of "biracial" people's physical appearance, I had early buy-in from my youth during the 1960s civil rights movement to the idea that black is beautiful. I was once in a research study as an undergraduate (college psychology departments being wont to recruit random undergraduates as research subjects) about the physical appearance of women. (All the women in the study, as you would expect in Minnesota, were white.) I smiled as I participated in the study, because I was shown a photograph, and asked to rate how beautiful the woman was. Then I was asked, "How beautiful do you think other people think she is," which surely was a back door way to get me to say what I REALLY felt. The popularly published research studies I've since read about human perceptions of beauty is that beauty is remarkably culturally universal, and based mostly on symmetry of features and on signs of good health.

[mathmom]

Hey I think most bi-racial people are better looking than most white people not just better looking than black people.

We have a lot of different shades of black in our very diverse community. The two kids of color that my son hangs out most with are a girl whose parents are from the Caribbean and a boy whose Mom is black and Dad is white. I don't have a good sense of what it's actually like at the high school however in terms of who is sitting with who. By high school though it tends to be kids in the same academic track. My younger son and I were talking about it the other day - he misses the days when you were friends with everyone in the class.

[MSUDad]

I'm chuckling at the characterization of the "white" table because it misses the nuances of what really happens: any white student would see several tables: the "private school kids' table," the "working class kids' table," the "Catholic kids' table," etc., and - this is crucial - I only belong at one of those, and all the kids are keenly aware of who-goes-where.

One who goes to the wrong table would get a reception far more hostile than modern society would allow based on outward features.