Revival of Middle Class Black Posters

[Northstarmom]

"I'm a little confused. In reference to black females wanting diversity because of the difficulty in dating outside their race. I always thought the black male and white female was less socially accepted than black female and white male because I have heard so many rantings from black females in movies and real life (some of them my associates) about how "they" steal the few college-educated men that we have left. "

Here are the facts: "The Census Bureau confirmed black women's complaints that white women were more likely to marry black men than white men were to marry black women. In 2000, African-American men had white wives 2.65 times more often than black women had white husbands. In other words, in 73 percent of black-white couples, the husband was black and wife was white.

(This interracial gender gap is even sharper among black-white couples who cohabit without being married. Five times as many black men live with white women as white men live with black women.)

Although some commentators had predicted that this intermarriage disparity should be evening out, this 2.65 ratio is similar to the 2.54 ratio in 1990. (The invention of the "multiracial" category in 2000 makes direct "apples to apples" comparisons across time impossible.):2000 Census Shows Interracial Marriage Gender Gap Remains Large by Steve Sailer for UPI; dating disparity, black-white couple, white-Asian pair, husband wife, Hispanic, intermarriage, relationship, Is Love Colorblind?

In addition, by American society's norms, black men --including black men with dark skin and "African" features are considered extremely attractive and sexy. Black women's typical features -- kinky hair, large booty, broad features -- are considered ugly.

There have been threads in the general CC cafe about what races are most attractive. Posts that mentioned black women said things like the black women who were attractive were people like Beyoncee and Vanessa Williams -- women who typically were bi-racial and had features, hair, body builds similar to what is considered attractive in white women.

Many black women are strongly against black men's dating white women because -- due to higher than mainstream death rates and incarceration rates, there is a shortage of available black men. Add to that, men of other races tend not to date black women.

Most of the black women whom I know who are in interracial marriages/relationships are either bi-racial or look bi-racial.

If black men want to date white women, it's easy to find white women to date. It's true that the women's parents may not be pleased with the situation, but the parents don't have to know.

Throughout my elementary and secondary schooling in my Upstate NY hometown, I attended overwhelmingly white schools including integrating my middle school, high school and elementary school. I naively went to school dances expecting to be treated like the other girls. The only time that I was ever asked to dance by a guy was in elementary school when the teachers made the guys ask all of the girls to square dance.

In middle school and high school, I was never asked to dance. I don't just mean "never asked to go to a dance by a guy," I mean I was never asked by a guy to dance. This was devastating particularly since my mom (who grew up in the segregated South) tried to be helpful by telling me that "no one notices you're Negro. Just smile more."

I thought that I must be hideous looking, but in reality I was a typical average to above average looking black girl. It wasn't until I went to Harvard, where my freshman class had the largest number of black students ever in Harvard's history -- 135 -- that I finally got dates, and, yes, was asked to dance.

Yet, in my high school, I remember when a black male student transferred in. He was ordinary looking, but my friends all talked about how "sexy" he was, and he got plenty of female attention.

[Consolation]

<<I'm chuckling at the characterization of the "white" table because it misses the nuances of what really happens: any white student would see several tables: the "private school kids' table," the "working class kids' table," the "Catholic kids' table," etc., and - this is crucial - I only belong at one of those, and all the kids are keenly aware of who-goes-where.>>

Well, this was definitely NOT the case at my college. Most of our dorms, by the way, had about 130 people and their own dining hall, so the options for splitting oneself into ethnic or class tables weren't many. A couple of dining halls served two or three dorms. The people I usually sat with junior and senior year was simply a group of friends. Amongst the group of six or seven were a person of Chinese ancestry, a person of Syrian/Lebanese ancestry, and people of various European ancestries; Catholics, Protestants, a Jew, and an atheist; people who had attended private and public schools, straight and gay, notherners and southerners. We were probably all "middle class" of one type or another.

[twomules]

Our family is not black but Mexican American.
Can I get some perpective from parents? Right now I am feeling discouraged by the racial incidents that occur on campus- example Williams and the racist graffiti. I worry about how things will play for my daughter. I hope she would speak up but I'm not sure. Are there any colleges you have crossed off your list, worrying about the atmosphere?

Maybe some of this is displaced worry about sending her out into the world. I've been able to run interference and won't be able to anymore.

My husband tries to distinguish between things said in ignorance versus things said in malice. Most of what we have encountered in the public schools are of the ignorant type, stunningly stupid.

Have you prepped your student on how to respond? I wonder if we have kept her too sheltered and need to talk more about what my husband has gone through. How do you stay positive?

And I've just about had it up to my eyeballs with the feeling on some of the threads that URMs get a magic golden card for entry into college and can't possible have the scores or the character required.

[SuperMom_I_Aint]

Wow. This hits close to the core. We held the rep for the best parties in the neighborhood through my oldest daughter's 13th b'day. Everyone always came. To this day, no boy has asked her out.

She asked a boy she's known since kindergarten to her senior prom this year. I know his parents well having served with them in various PTA and extracurricular functions throughout the years. They are both former Peace Corps and well-traveled, particularly on the African continent. The boy accepted, but a week or two later, she "uninvited" him - noting as her reason: she felt like a charity case.

As the leader of our area's first African-American Girl Scout troop (diversified about 4 years ago), I know dozens of black girls. Oddly, I don't know a single black boy my daughter's age. Worse, the few boys of color in her classes are all biracial, and have chosen to date on the lighter end of the color spectrum. My gorgeous daughter (dark smooth skin, gorgeous smile, long hair, great figure) has, in the occasional weak moment, asked me whether she is hideous. This is the same girl who has been stopped twice by modeling agents, and graced the cover of a kid's magazine.

Let's talk of brighter things.

What do y'all think -- my oldest has been irritating the heck out of me of late. Since landing a full ride, she's assumed that we "owe" her a portion of the savings, and has been finding ways to spend it. I say she should GET A JOB! What say you? Should the kids work while at school?

[Northstarmom]

"What do y'all think -- my oldest has been irritating the heck out of me of late. Since landing a full ride, she's assumed that we "owe" her a portion of the savings, and has been finding ways to spend it. I say she should GET A JOB! What say you? Should the kids work while at school?"

My deal with my sons was that if they got a full ride, I'd give them part of the savings. Older S basically got a full ride. He also planned to work while in college and over the summers because he had the skills to get jobs in what was then a field he loved: journalism. He had a journalism internship lined up at a major newspaper (Kid was essentially a prodigy in that field), and a reporting job lined up at the school newspaper). With those earnings, I figured out he could save enough to be able to buy property by the time he was a senior.

I also had always required that he invest half of his earnings (He had been earning money since he was a high school soph), and had taken him to an investment counselor so he could select how to invest his money.

So, before he went to college, I had him talk to an investment counselor again, who showed him how he could invest so as to be a millionaire by the time he was in his mid 30s. I also had a real estate agent take him around and talk to him about how he could buy property in a few years.

I split with him the difference that his dad and I were saving as a result of his full ride. However, I required that S put half of that money into investments -- with me being the co-owner. I told him he could get all of the money when he turned 21 (If I could do it over, I'd have changed that age to age 25.)

Unfortunately, S ended up flunking out due to partying (But he did do a wonderful job in his internships and jobs), hasn't returned to school, and now by choice works in a job that's almost poverty level. But he's supporting himself. I think that he used his investments to pay off debts and fund his move to a new city.

My guess is that since girls mature earlier than guys do, your D would make better decisions with her money.

I do suggest that you talk to her about how she could benefit by working since she could use that extra money for investments, which could put her in a great situation by the time she's 30. I don't think you should require her to work.

I also do think you should split with her the difference of what her full ride is saving you.

And congratulations on your D's full ride!
I hope she'll be going to a college where she'll finally get some dates! This particularly is important for black females as I know many accomplished, beautiful black women who have seldom dated and never married even though they are in their 40s.

[Northstarmom]

"Can I get some perpective from parents? Right now I am feeling discouraged by the racial incidents that occur on campus- example Williams and the racist graffiti. I worry about how things will play for my daughter. I hope she would speak up but I'm not sure. Are there any colleges you have crossed off your list, worrying about the atmosphere?"

There are racists all over the place, so with the exception of Bob Jones College, there aren't colleges that I'd cross of a list due to fears of racisim.

My cousin (black male from D.C.) attends Williams, and loves it. He's now a junior or senior, and has done well there academically and socially, including having some leadership roles. I also know a bi-racial woman -- African American and Chinese American -- who had an excellent experience at Williams.

I've lived in the Northeast, New England, D.C., South, Midwest and West, and everywhere that I have lived some kind of racist incidents have occurred. This included living 3 miles from where a KKK rally occurred (I actually went to see it. There was a handful of Klansmembers, and a large group of people -- mainly white -- who protested the Klan). This occurred in the South. When I lived in the Midwest, a cross was burned on a black person's yard that was about 3 miles from my house. When I lived in D.C., I was called the "n" word a couple of blocks from the White House.

Still, all of those occurrences were overshadowed by the kindness of most of the people who lived in those areas.

Your D will have to figure out on her own how to deal with racism that she inevitably will encounter no matter where she goes to college or ends up living.

It would be wonderful if we could protect our kids from this, but we can't. We can, though, continue to work to improve the world so it's a better place for our kids than it was for us and our ancestors.

[Counting12001]

During my white daughters junior year at high school the drama department put on La Mis. The production featured sevral blacks in lead roles. There were no issues. Fast forward to her senior year and the school decides to put on Dream Girls. My daughter who was without a doubt the best singer in the cast was given a lead role. She was tormented by some of the blacks in the cast. Black parents complained to the principal and then the school board. In the end she quit the production and missed out on one of her favorite activities. Racism works both ways....

[Shrinkrap]

Racism works both ways..Yes. Although I might say MANY ways.

With regard to " the Black table", is there a consensus as to what percentage of the population URM's must be for this phenomenon to exist? In my 1st HS, a Catholic School in New York, there was a "Black table" . I'd guess we were less then 5 percent of the population. My kids go to a school with about 4 percent Blacks; neither socialize with any particular race. There is a" Black "group, but according to my D, there we more "Wannabes", then actual Black students in it!

[MSUDad]

Consolation, I'm glad that things work at your school. Perhaps that's a good reason to look at a small LAC. At my small LAC it didn't work that way, but that was years ago and it was bigger than the one you note.

[orchestramom]

^ #31
"Most of the black women whom I know who are in interracial marriages/relationships are either bi-racial or look bi-racial."

Interesting observation NSM, but not one that matches my experience. I am a black woman in an interracial marriage and no mistaking me for anything other than African-American. Also holds for several friends and acquaintances.

[SuperMom_I_Aint]

Orchestra -- Just curious. How would you describe the acculturation (sp?) of your friends/acquaintances during the formative years? How would you describe your/their social experiences during the college years? For example: "effortless"? or "we were determined to break societal barriers."?

[threedaysgrace]

Thanks NSM for answering my question about interracial marriage. It makes alot of sense now.

I visited the University of Chicago in October and talked to a black female students about race relation in the school. She is a premed major and says that her freshman year her biology professor indirectly questioned whether or not she could adequately complete the prereqs for the premed track because of her race. She has also heard a few racial slurs around campus. However, she said in that things are okay generally.

So I totally agree with NSM about racism existing in all regions of the US (even in a large, diverse city like Chicago.) I was naive thinking that most racism occured in the South (where I liive in Georgia) before I visited

[twomules]

Northstarmom:

Yeah, you're right. I've got to keep accentuating the positive. I think she has started taking care of things herself based on a couple of comments she has said offhandedly.

Thanks for the good words about your cousins experience it Williams.

[dntw8up]

"She is a premed major and says that her freshman year her biology professor indirectly questioned whether or not she could adequately complete the prereqs for the premed track because of her race."

Is it possible that the "indirect question" was more a matter of the student misperceiving the instructor? I live on an island that is ninety percent West Indian (black), ten percent "other" -- Puerto Rican/Asian/continental (white.) When an "other" perceives racism, s/he is informed by the majority that his/her perception is mistaken.

[Consolation]

MSUDad, in case I wasn't clear, I was talking about the situation at my LAC in the 1970s. Black separatism was all the rage, but the other divisions you suggested did not exist, in my experience. Oh, and the student body was about 1400.