What's going on with the College Admission this year?

[puzzledad]

I am learning a lot from you parents. Different views, different perspectives - very educational.

Wanted to address few concerns brought up by JHS. Yes You are right. I haven't presented him quite right. I haven't given you the full picture. It's almost impossible to draw the full picture in the CC post. Let me give just a few examples in my son's defense. His research professor once told me that he will give him a rec letter and he will write how spontaneous, humorous and yet intellectual this kid is. The same professor told me to my husband that he hasn't seen a kid with this kind of research knowledge in last 10 years. The prof also told me that everyday when my son showed up at his work, first they talked about the US economy, upcoming election and then they dived into the lab research. The Guidance counselor said to me that my son did the science research when the science teacher of High School was on maternity leave and that is independent research. That is indeed "Thinking outside the box". It's not just "hard working". It's creativity. You can not win so many awards just by plain hardworking. You need something in addition to that. So It's not fair to hint at his "intellectual energy" in the application.

Another comment I have from my own observation is that when a kid (I mean anyone under this earth) is working towards his own goal for 10-12 years then he ahs a passion for it, not just bare "sense of duty". Somehow I can smell a biased view in JHS opinion. Hope none of the admin officers were like you. You are speaking from your perception about Asian kids. But they all are very different like any body else.
If we don't wnat to have goals for good grades, better colleges or better studies, better atmosphere, we might not enroll in schools at all. Just play and watch TV and learn in a natural way under this blue sky and hope to become "great people" one day. If we only believe in learning without achieving something, then the school system should get rid of the grading policies(A/B/C/D) so we just enjoy the learning part. There wouldn't be any motivation for excellence. Why does US News rank the High Schools and colleges for gods sake? Why do the colleges bother to look at the High school ranking/profile and factor that ranking into the decision making process? Do you know how the ranking is formulated? It's based on SAT I/II scores, AP scores, number of students attending 4 yr colleges, # of courses for college readiness and of course the demography of the school and many many other factors. After all this, if we target a "ranked" college, then it's interpreted as the kid is doing it only for the college admission. To me, it sounds like one way judgment.
The colleges are preaching that they are looking for "wholistic" background, they are looking for leadership, track record and excellence. Now you don't get leadership/excellence just from natural excitement, nor from just enjoying life without achieving anything intellectually.

I agree with UCBchem, UCLABAND mom and researchermom. I am aware of the lawsuits also against the UCs. There are a lot of factors that are being considered for Asian kids. They do have a higher bar to compete against. I would like to see that the college admin officers advertise these policies loud and clear so we can set our expectations. As Sawdust brought up the question "whether Asians are being discriminated against". The answer is "yes". The colleges are discriminating them in a very articulate savvy way.
A Cornel Alumni interviewed my son and after reviewing his credentials, asked point blank if his parents are very educated. When my son gave an affirmative answer, he said "I thought your parents got you the research opportunity from their networking. But now I see that they work in a different fired altogether". We are no fool. We know what is going on. But we cant do anything against the system. It's very disappointing.

I agree with many parents on this post. My son has a wonderful background, experience and work habits. He will stand out wherever he goes.

[je_ne_sais_quoi]

puzzledad, I think there are always a few diamonds that the miners miss. Your son sounds like one of them this year.

He will continue to dazzle, of that I am sure.

[Bay]

I am aware of the lawsuits also against the UCs.

Can someone direct me to information about these? I am not familiar with them. (Just Prop 209)

[2VU0609]

Puzzledad,
Your son sounds truly outstanding. With his love of research, it is highly likely he will end up pursuing graduate education. Since it sounds likely that he will excel at his safety school and will likely make connections with his professors, he will probably have wonderful options for graduate programs. With these programs, it's not the university admissions committees, but the colleges/departments themselves that choose from among the applicants. I'm sure his future will be bright even if it doesn't evolve in the way you both expected in the short term.

[TheGFG]

puzzledad, you may be correct that an Asian kid has to work harder to demonstrate a passion and love of learning to adcoms, since there is a prejudiced assumption that Asian kids are working hard because their parents and culture dictate they must do so and because deviation from that path is a serious matter for your culture.

I was thinking about the essay as a distinguishing factor for admissions. On one hand, to the extent that a creative, well-thought out and well-written essay is indicative of a superior mind, I have no issues with it being a tipping factor in admissions. But one concern I have is that the essay is a big part of "packaging" which might reflect less on the student and more on how aware the student's GC or parents are about how the game is played. I was more informed than most parents I knew, but found CC kind of late in the game. I mostly used it as a resource for experiential information about specific colleges and for financial aid information. Later on, I read more threads like this on which discussed essay-writing. Had I known then what I know now about the criteria under which adcoms judge it, my S's common app essay would have been better and different. It was fine, but did nothing to distinguish him. So, I guess I still feel it's a shame that a day's work in writing an essay could potentially outweigh the daily grind of 4+ years of involvement and hard work.

[JHS]

Puzzledad, I don't want to get into this with you, but I am a little offended at your quick leap to accusing me of "bias" and writing from my perception of Asian kids. I was responding to what YOU wrote, to how YOU presented your son, and observing that it was not an especially good way to make a case for any student. What I wrote applied equally to Asians, Anglos, Jews, whatever.

My son, by the way, had a similar experience to yours at the most selective colleges. His qualities were similar, too, except fewer competitions and some non-science prizes. He did a good job of presenting himself in his essays, but the self he presented was a little immature, unformed, and I think that hurt him. He had Asian friends who were accepted at colleges that rejected him, and they were exciting, inspiring kids (with, as it happens, slightly lower "stats" than he had). Neither he nor I thought anything unfair had happened there. My experience has been that some really great kids get accepted everywhere, and some only a few places. I haven't seen many kids I respected without happy endings (but I didn't know that many kids applying this year).

[Alumother]

After 2 kids and 3.5 years on collegeconfidential, and a best friend with a college senior as well, here is what my anecdotal experience would confirm - if my experience were a proxy for the broad group. Is it? I don't know. Take this as a data point. Note that some of these items probably have overlap effect but I don't have a large enough sample to analyze.

- It is harder for girls to get into good schools than boys. Schools expect boys to get some A- and even B+ grades.
- Being full pay helps.
- Being a legacy helps.
- Some "lower level" Ivies may value very high SAT scores. Having all scores over 750 and an 800 here and there is different from having scores in the lower 700s. No matter what they say.
- Some "lower level" Ivies may value - no matter what they say - expressed interest.
- Some "lower level" Ivies, if they believe you have a very good shot at "higher level Ivies", will waitlist you.
- Some "LL" Ivies may be more inclined to take you if you are a gender they are lacking.
- An extremely good essay, original, well-written, and untouched by adult hands, is very valuable in achieving acceptances
- Any essay that is untouched by adult hands and truly evocative of the child him or herself will be valuable in achieving acceptances even if it is only moderately well-written
- A strong record coming from a school that sends the top 10% of their kids to top 10 colleges every year helps
- Being a recruited athlete can get you in to a top Ivy even when your SATs are below 700. However, your grades still have to be very very good.
- Sending in extra stuff like videos, portfolios is good. If the extra stuff is remarkable.
- Having your kid engage in activities that they truly love is good.
- Having your kid engage in original, unique activites that they truly love is better.
- Having your kid engage in original, unique activites that they truly love AND they enter competitions for and win is best.
- Pushing your kid to get perfect SATs and perfect grades and engage in competitions may get your kid into the top Ivies, but you may damage your kid in the process if the activities and studying aren't native to their being.

Peace out. Hoping to take this thread off the Asian kid etc. track.

[epiphany]

"Now you don't get leadership/excellence just from natural excitement, nor from just enjoying life without achieving anything intellectually."

Who said the opposite? Many of your statements reveal a stereotyping of the whole admissions process, as well as the concepts themselves. Colleges are not looking for empty,superficial leadership, but that with intellectual substance & creativity behind it.

"There are a lot of factors that are being considered for Asian kids. They do have a higher bar to compete against."

No they don't. This is the same mythology that gets repeated every year. It would help to go over to the Admissions forum and observe what happens when one more student screams 'discrimination' because of a, or several, college rejections.

Your anecdotes do not amount to evidence of discrimination, or a "higher bar."
Because it may be a personal/family goal in some/many Asian families to have & maintain grades & scores as a priority over everything else, does not mean that the colleges are asking for higher & higher scores, grades from Asian students, as opposed to non-Asian students. To the extent that any student, Asian or not, is an asset to a college because of a combined academic profile which includes but is not limited to stats, that student, of any ethnicity, will be admitted vs. students with less academic merit, of any ethnicity.

What you see is more of a clustering of college choices among Asians than among many other groups; therefore the rejection rate VERSUS the application rate may turn out to be higher. That is NOT evidence of 'discrimination.' It's evidence of family decision-making.

Posters have been advising for quite awhile now: go where Asians are in demand, because fewer are applying. Go where your (you, any student's) region is underrepresented; you will have an advantage. Go where applicants in your particular major are a little less knowledgeable/prepared than you; you will have an advantage as someone who is particularly ready for an academic program there that has just received an injection of funding.

[ellemenope]

>>a day's work in writing an essay<<

I wish it were only a day...it seemed like an excruciating MONTH by the time the finished product was ready for primetime!

[ellemenope]

A lot of great points, Alumother! Especially this:

- Having your kid engage in activities that they truly love is good.
- Having your kid engage in original, unique activites that they truly love is better.
- Having your kid engage in original, unique activites that they truly love AND they enter competitions for and win is best.

[Bay]

Now you don't get leadership/excellence just from natural excitement, nor from just enjoying life without achieving anything intellectually.

Hmmm. If you are saying what I think you are saying, then I disagree with this statement wholehearted. I don't think leadership/excellence necessarily has anything to do with intellectual pursuits, and everything to do with "natural excitement" about something a person enjoys in life.

OP - Do you think you know what your son would have done with his life if college was not a goal? Sometimes I think the "person" is masked or never developed when kids are pressured to conform or achieve to a specific formula.

I've said this once before, but if all would-be applicants could be marooned on a desert island for a year, without the prospect of college admission, then their true intelligence, character, resourcefulness, charity, etc. would be revealed. This is the type of thing admissions officers are seeking to discover, imho.

[menloparkmom]

"Why does US News rank the High Schools and colleges for gods sake? HUH??? " To SELL MAGAZINES! USNews does not represent the word of "god" as far as college or HS rank! It is a business devoted to selling magazines, nothing more!. Anyone who uses a MAGAZINE as their guide to where their children should apply to college is too caught up in the "prestige factor" of college rankings.

"What you see is more of a clustering of college choices among Asians than among many other groups; therefore the rejection rate VERSUS the application rate may turn out to be higher. That is NOT evidence of 'discrimination.' It's evidence of family decision-making."
I can't agree with this enough. Over and over again, every year, there are multiple asian parents who post on CC to who ask what they/ their children can do to get into HYPS, or other Ivy's, AS IF THEY THEY ARE THE ONLY COLLEGES WORTH GOING TO! I'm not saying that all asian families do this, but this is a pattern that keeps on being repeated- Only the "best" colleges are worth applying to, otherwise the family loses "face". There are 3000 colleges in the US, and a great education can be had at most of them. But if the same students are applying to the same colleges each year, that does not mean more of them will be accepted. America is a melting pot, not a meritocracy, and colleges admissions officers put together a class that is representative of their interpretation of that melting pot, which means it is not comprised of only the top students statistically .

[bethievt]

jonri

That was the best explanation of the US college admissions process (at least at schools that practice holistic admissions) I've ever seen. Great examples and the analogy to casting a play really hit home.

And of course FIND A SAFETY YOU CAN LOVE!

I took this seriously even though my son had everything a college would want except athletics. Of the 20 campuses we visited, 6 were in the safety range given his profile and another 8 or more were probably matches. I told him he needed to pick his favorite one or two of the safer schools and then the rest was up to him. He came up with the most intelligent list because at every school on that list, it was likely that the admissions committee would be looking for someone just like him, though we couldn't be sure that the most selective ones would accept him. And the 2 safer schools he selected had EA, so we knew early that he'd have somewhere good to go.

[je_ne_sais_quoi]

How in the world does a kid know where to apply anymore? If college admissions officers are putting together a class that is representative of their interpretation of that melting pot, where does one begin? How would a student know where his individual set of credentials might match in these ever shifting times? What was right last year might not be what will be right this year. Talk about shooting at a moving target! No wonder kids are applying to a record number of schools.

[bethievt]

jnsq

It is a moving taget, for sure, and very frustrating and painful for many kids and parents this year, but the *true* safety school on your daughter's list did accept her with merit $$. Granted that she was an extremely strong candidate, as was my son, true safety on the list was still advisable and you and your daughter had the great good sense to include a real safety, though you were misadvised about some other schools.