Another article about US News Rankings

[danas]

I don't think xiggi is trying to elevate "objective data", but rather to express distaste for the peer ratings, which tend reflect regional bias and prejudice, reverence for graduate programs (when undergraduate schools are being ranked), anti-religious school bias, over-respect for the images of days gone by (some of the women's colleges), etc., etc. The whole thing is the "good ol' boy" system run amok.
I am no huge booster of USN&WR, but before the wide broadcast of consumer information to the public, the "good ol' boy" rankings held sway, and only the in-crowd had access to them.

[UCBChemEGrad]

^ The opinions are what they are. Over 2,000 academics rated university programs from "distinguished to marginal"...

If dissenters want their voices heard, they should rank the universities as they see fit and return the survey...or, mark the survey as "i don't know" like they were instructed.

It would be much more productive than whining about the results.

[hawkette]

ucbchemegrad,
Re your description of xiggi U,

"1. Only 4 students attend...each is a 2400 SAT scorer...SAT average is tops.
2. Only 1 student is admitted...100 applicants...admit rate is 1%.
3. Xiggi U has 2 professors...student/faculty ratio is 2/1.
4. All alumni are required to donate $2/year to Xiggi U...100% alumni giving rate
5. % of Classes Less than 20 = 100%, % of Classes Greater than 50 = 0%
6. The profs are highly compensated...along with the small class size and low student/faculty ratio, Xiggi U has a very high faculty resources rank.
7. Endowment is $20 billion due to Xiggi's fortune amassed in SAT prep service and spending is lavish...financial resources rank is high."

I know that he'll speak for himself, but for the top student who is choosing where to go to college, other than your ridiculous entering class size assumption, what's wrong with looking for:

1. a highly selective entering class of students
2. learing in a classroom size that allowed for meaninful interaction between students and with the professor
3. led by a teacher who actually prioritized the teaching of his/her students as the number one priority
4. at an institution that has a lot of resources that are drawn upon to enhance the undergraduate student experience.

I think that this might be a pretty swell combination for any school. What's not to like?

[UCBChemEGrad]

reverence for graduate programs (when undergraduate schools are being ranked)

How do you segregate "graduate programs" from "undergraduate programs" when they are taught by the same faculty?

[danas]

The whole idea of Consumer Reports etc, was to give the public information that was not defined by the producers. PA is a relic of the bad old days.

[UCBChemEGrad]

Ok Hawkette, if that's how you define academic greatness and where you'd like to go to school...more power to you.

Such a small environment cannot possibly give you a broad range of experiences that will be encountered in the real world. I don't like sheltered environments.

[UCBChemEGrad]

The whole idea of Consumer Reports etc, was to give the public information that was not defined by the producers. PA is a relic of the bad old days.

Fair enough. Who do you suggest USNWR poll that has broad knowledge of academic programs? And especially a group that won't introduce the biases that you're trying to eliminate?

[UCBChemEGrad]

Hawkette, nothing's wrong with it...I was just pointing out that only looking at the objective data could lead to a basis for choosing a university that is "ridiculous". I meant for my example to be ridiculous...that's the point!

[hawkette]

ucbchemegrad,
Who said it had to be a small environment? My suggestions are applicable whether the student body is 1500, 15,000 or 40,000. I still care about the quality of the students, the size of the classroom in which I am learning, the nature and quality of the teaching that I receive in the classroom and the amount of resources my school has and if/how they are spending them to support undergraduate education.

[UCBChemEGrad]

^ You're still missing the point Hawkette....If USNWR were to rank hypothetical Xiggi U, it would be rated #1 based on the objective measures...however the school would be very limiting in activities and breadth of academic program offerings wouldn't you say?

My point is, forming a ranking off only objective data shows that it can be manipulated and not show the whole package...

[bluebayou]

UCBChemGrad:

Don't forget the (subjective) employer survey that certain parties recommend adding.

[bluebayou]

Originally Posted by xiggi

The presumption....is that famous profs are rarely part of the undergraduate experience...

Xiggi/hawkette: where is the objective, quantifiable data to support this "presumption"?

[hawkette]

bluebayou,
Just curious to know what you think...If USNWR were to decide to add to the subjective aspect of their ranking and involve more voices, in what order would you favor the following groups:

a. high school guidance counselors
b. employers
c. college students

[bluebayou]

^^

a. No
b. No
c. No

[hawkette]

You do realize that having high school guidance counselors serve as college rankers is one of the key proposals under consideration in the article that is the subject of this thread, right?