Engineering vs. Arts and Sciences College

[sabaray]

My D, a high school junior, is waffling quite a bit about college applications (not that unusual, I know). Today she thinks that she wants a career in medicine, but in what capacity she's not sure. She could always change her mind. She has been thinking about applying to schools with a BME major but is nervous about getting locked into a curriculum. For those of you with children in engineering programs, what types of factors did your child consider when applying to these programs? Were they positive that they wanted careers in engineering? I know nothing about engineering and was surprised when D told me that engineering majors were usually fairly successful in medical school admissions. Previous interests for majors have included Biology and Chemistry. Any parents with first hand experience?

The problem is that, like many students on CC, my daughter is pretty well rounded and could probably do any number of things- she's just pretty much focused on math and science until now. I really need help guiding and encouraging her- right now I'm just feeling frustrated. The list of colleges to apply to changes every week depending on her mood and I'm not really sure what to suggest next.

Hope this wasn't too vague. Any and all suggestions are welcome!

[mathmom]

I've heard somewhat the opposite that the lack of grade inflation at engineering schools is often a disadvantage for pre-med students.

My nephew is doing BME at Rice and is very happy there. He's been able to do research with professors and just in general has matured by leaps and bounds while he's been there. (He's finishing up soph year now.) I can't remember his entire list, but know he was rejected from MIT, Stanford and Caltech (actually might have been waitlisted there). He was deciding between Cornell and Carnegie Mellon. I think he was sold by the residential college system at Rice and that he felt less locked into the engineering program there. (Though I think it's easy enough to transfer out of engineering at both Cornell and CMU they are more separate schools.) If she's not 100% sure about engineering she should look for schools that have solid programs outside the engineering schools. There are lots of them! I know there are also 3/2 or is it 2/3 programs where you go first to a LAC then to an engineering school.

[nngmm]

If she does not want to commit to engineering yet, she should apply to schools that offer variety of majors in addition to engineering (most universities will fit that profile).

At many schools she would not have to decide on a major till the end of her sophomore year.

[mominva]

First off, congratulations to your daughter for considering a variety of options. As for getting tied to a curriculum, as long as you D is at a university with arts and sciences as well as engineering, she probably won't be locked in.
That said, if she has the inclination, grades and scores to get into engineering programs, that is the route she should start out on. It is MUCH easier to bail out of an engineering program than it is to transfer into one.

If you give us some criteria (size, climate, location, distance from home), the folks on this board are always happy to offer suggestions.

[mafool]

At many schools she would not have to decide on a major till the end of her sophomore year

Quite true, nngmm, but to graduate on time with an engineering degree, the prospective engineering major must begin the engineering curriculum first semester freshman year. So many of the courses (math and physics, for instance) are sequential in nature.

Another, related, observation: it is much easier to transfer out of engineering to another major than it is to transfer in. (edit:whoops, already stated by mominva)

If having that option is attractive, looking at universities with both types of programs (as opposed to a "tech"-type school) may be advantageous. DS, who was sure of the engineering path, wanted to go to a school with a broader offering because of what he thought would be the diversity of interests within the student body and so that he could sample from the LA side of the pool.

Another option is the 3/2 arrangements that many LACs have with engineering-degree-granting institutions.

[ucsd_ucla_dad]

I second what 'mominva' and 'mafool' stated. It's applicable to the UCs.

[nngmm]

If you want to go the LAC route, it might be better to go to LACs that offer engineering (from the top of my head, that would be Swarthmore and Smith, though I am sure there are more. Of course, Harvey Mudd is great for engineering and sciences, but that is definitely a "tech" school.)

[Marian]

This is a very difficult decision.

There are two major factors to consider, and they lead to different decisions.

On the one hand, it is really easy to switch from engineering to arts and sciences (especially if the student's major within arts and sciences would be of the science-y kind). It is very hard to switch in the other direction because the engineering curriculum is more structured and sequential than the arts and sciences curriculum. Thus, for a person who may be interested in engineering but is not sure, starting out in engineering makes the most sense.

On the other hand, GPAs in engineering tend to run lower than in most other parts of a university. Students who aspire to medical school need high GPAs. So a premedical student who majors in engineering might be decreasing his/her chances of eventual admission to medical school.

Possible compromise solution: Start in engineering, but take as many APs in relevant subjects (biology, chemistry, math, physics) as possible in high school. Then, do not accept AP credit no matter how high your AP scores. Take the college's introductory courses in at least one or two of these subjects. This strategy does not guarantee good grades in the subjects that the student is "repeating," but it helps. Also, taking a couple of courses for which the student is overqualified helps to free up time for engineering-specific courses, so that the student can concentrate on them (both to test his/her liking for engineering and to be able to do well in them). The point here is to make it possible for the student to explore engineering as a freshman without sacrificing the sort of GPA that pre-meds need. (After freshman year, you're on your own.)

Some people will say that this strategy is educational sacrilege. They're right. But sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

[sabaray]

Geographically, she's interested in the East coast and mid-Atlantic. We live in the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia so about 2 hours from DC. She doesn't want to be too far away from home (so that rules out CA, etc.) - a metro area is preferred. She doesn't want a small LAC. Ideal size would probably be about 6,000 undergrads or so. All I know are the "name" schools- Duke, UVA, JHU, etc. -that on paper she appears to have the stats for but I know the competitive nature of admissions for those schools. Duke is very high on her list - she liked the idea of Georgetown until we visited and then wasn't sure. She needs more information, I think. WUSTL has sent her a ton of mail, but she's not interested. (Before everyone jumps to say mail isn't a sign of interest- I know, they mail to everyone. I know mail is a marketing tool.)

I guess when looking at curriculum for the programs, she came to the realization that her interests fit more with BME than Biology and that she would more than likely take all of those classes anyway - so why not in an engineering program. To complicate matters further, she really wants to study abroad which I am encouraging during the summer.

My biggest concern has always been for her to find a safety that she loves, regardless of the program. Good to know better to start out in engineering- I guess that was one of my other concerns.

Marian- I like the way you think! When she graduates she'll have AP Chem, Organic Chemistry, AP Bio, AP Calc and AP Stats under her belt. I don't think she needs to be in any hurry to place out of these areas.

[doubleplay]

My son looked at large universities with engineering programs. He is currently studying engineering and would be happy going to either med school or a graduate school for biomedical engineering. Had he not liked what he is studying, he had lots of choices in other areas. I would hope that the curriculum would have some bearing on evaluating med school admissions, but... Funny thing is, the required classes for med school are the classes he's done the best in. Do they look at overall GPA, or med-school prereq's GPA? We've discussed this before, though, and his opinion is this, "Hey, I LIKE my classes. I may not make straight A's and if that makes the difference, so be it. I'm not taking a bunch of classes that I'm not really interested in." Something tells me he's going to be just fine.

[nngmm]

CMU could be a good choice (not a "safety" though...)

[mathmom]

My husband (who only does MD PhD. admissions) looks primarily at science courses and puts a lot of weight on MCAT scores. I'd guess Va. Tech would be a possible safety since you are in VA. U. of Maryland is another possiblity for a school that might be safer that's not too far away. They have bioengineering - my nephew also applied there. I agree CMU is a probably a match rather than a safety. It's a nice size and not too far away from you.

[jmmom]

I agree with what Marian has said.

Critical thing is to go to a full U with both Engineering and Arts & Sciences, so she can switch out of Engineering if she wants (or one of the few LACs that offer both). Not a Tech Institute.

Possible safety for BME - Tulane. Possible merit $$ there, too. Apply non-binding EA for that since, although I have called it a safety, it has always been quite highly ranked in BME. So, she would know if she is really safe by mid-late December. Plus, early often enhances prospects for merit aid.

[midmo]

If she wants to consider going inland a bit, Vanderbilt University offers BME in its engineering school (VUSE); some of those students are doing a pre-med track but most of the pre-med students at Vanderbilt are in Arts and Science.

It is my understanding that Vanderbilt tells pre-med students that they should not use any AP credits to skip over introductory bio and chem classes, because some medical schools do not like it. I don't know if this is fact or not, but could be another reason to make use of Marian's strategy.

I recommend a school like Vanderbilt or other "multi-purpose" university for a student who is unsure about engineering, or who has significant interests outside tech-type subjects. As others have mentioned, it is not difficult to transfer out of engineering and into A & S, but the reverse transfer could easily leave a student looking at an extra semester or two.

You asked if our kids were sure about engineering: my son was sure about computer science, which is not always found in engineering schools. At Vanderbilt, he is a student in the engineering school, but the c.s. major is quite different than the other engineering disciplines. I don't think he really is an "engineer" in the sense that most of the students in the other engr. majors are. It is my impression that most engineering majors have known for some time that they wanted to be engineers.

[sabaray]

These are all wonderful suggestions and insights. I am hoping Vanderbilt will be a school she considers; I think it would be a good fit for her but of course she has other ideas. I think we both have a bit of anxiety about Tulane- fear of hurricanes being one of the biggest reasons for said anxiety.

You mention that most engineering majors have known for some time they wanted to be engineers- it may be that my D has known this for some time and I just didn't listen closely enough. So I guess we could say I am playing catch-up!