ROTC Feedback?

[huguenot]

Many years ago, my dh went through AFROTC on a scholarship. He graduated and was commissioned a 2nd lieutenant the same day. He did four years active duty and got out. It was, on the whole, a good experience for us (we married within a month of graduation). I was not in the service. It was peacetime until the last couple of months he was in, though.

Here's where our experience varies from what some are saying above. When my dh got out, you had a choice whether to go active reserves (weekend warriors - one weekend a month and two weeks in the summer, unless you get called up, which happens a lot these days) *or* to just go IRR - individual ready reserve for four years. In the IRR, you have no duties and no pay, but they have the right to call you up at your current rank if you are needed. In our time, this never happened, and I don't think had happened since WW2. I do not know if this has changed, but in our time, it was really a four year commitment and four years of hearing from them every year.

ROTC was not a burden to my dh, but supplied some spending money, comradery, and a job at graduation :-) He did have to spend 6 weeks between his soph and jr year at camp - like officers' training camp. He also had to stay in shape :-)

Now, computer engineering experience in the service is seldom very applicable to engineering outside because of the outdated equipment the military uses. However, many companies hire junior officers anyway (and some preferentially) because of the leadership skills.

[JustAMomOf4]

Yes there is the IRR. I hate to mention that "option" right now - remember you are at the "Needs Of the Army" (or Navy or AF).

These days with Army - they are actually calling up IRR. AF is downsizing so you may still be able to go IRR.
I just hate to tell a kid they only need to serve 4 years then they a can get out - it's not black and whilte.
The length of service also depends on your training, i.e. if you go to flight school then you must serve longer.

[JustAMomOf4]

dank08 - if you are in college next year and you want to learn about the military then sign up for the ROTC class.
ROTC is just like any other class you take. usually only about 2 credits and if you are not contracted then the field training is optional. My daughter took Army ROTC for 3 semesters in college and really enjoyed it.
There is NO obligation at all for just taking ROTC. It is a great way to see if military life is for you.

[Iron Maiden]

For Navy ROTC 4-year scholarships you have until the first day of classes of Sophomore year to withdraw from the program. After that you are committed.

You are commissioned as an Ensign. Minimum 4 years active duty, 4 years reserves. Pilots, medical will have longer contracts.

[fauve]

These days ROTC means tuition money, being commissioned as a second lieutenant the same day of college graduation, some training and then DEPLOYMENT to Iraq or Afghanistan. Don't hope that your son will stay in some sort of training for 3 years before he is sent over. This is war time, and as a parent you will have at least four years of the grimmest days of worry and dread: worrying before he is deployed, during his deployment, then after, about when he will return.

Please prepare him for the facts of war, and mortality, as well as the satisfaction of serving his country and the adventure.

As a parent, do not expect any sympathy or understanding from friends whose children are chasing material comforts and prestige in their post-college pursuits. On both coasts, military service is seen as some aberration of the consumer-striving life plan. Try finding a wealthy Republican (Senate, House, corporation?) whose child is in the military.

The higher tier the college is, the fewer ROTC students--and some Ivys have no programs, or shared programs with a state school down the road.

[Iron Maiden]

Fauve, for Marine option and Army you are correct. Navy obviously does not deploy to Iraq. With Navy ROTC you are are a non-restricted line officer for 4 years. So you in a position of authority on something that floats. And you are an Ensign there is no Lt in the Navy.

[JustAMomOf4]

Oh my - you do know alot about the military. I see from other posts that you have a daughter at Harvard? Good for you. and her.

Do you know all of this from first hand experience or is this just conjecture? You have a friend of a friend who went to ROTC?

Let's just address the FACTS here:

These days ROTC means tuition money, being commissioned as a second lieutenant the same day of college graduation, some training and then DEPLOYMENT to Iraq or Afghanistan. Don't hope that your son will stay in some sort of training for 3 years before he is sent over. This is war time, and as a parent you will have at least four years of the grimmest days of worry and dread: worrying before he is deployed, during his deployment, then after, about when he will return.

ROTC does mean money for tuition IF you have a scholarship. Many kids take ROTC without a scholarship. Those that do often NEED the money to attend college. Not everyone grows up with trust funds. Not everyone can or wants to take out huge loans. If you give then you get - simple as that.

Yes you will be commissioned as an O-1 upon graduation - what a proud moment that is for all.
Training - this is variable. For the Army it will depend on which branch you select. There are 16 branches and only one is Infantry. Regardless, you will be sent to school for at least 6 months and often a year or more depending on your specialty.
Yes - many officers are deployed to Iraq. As horrifying as that sounds - the three most POPULAR branches that cadets choose (from West Point and ROTC) are Infantry, Aviation and Armor. Whether or not you deploy depends on many variables - which branch, duty post etc.
As a parent - yes there is a worry. But pride as well - that one's child is selflessly serving and becoming the best leader he/she can to our country's soldiers who are so deserving of good leadership.
As a parent, I worry as well that my child will be in a car accident, fall off a cliff while hiking, succumb to some stupid drinking game in the dorm - but I don't dwell on it 24-7.

Please prepare him for the facts of war, and mortality, as well as the satisfaction of serving his country and the adventure.

Yep - the Army will do this as well.

As a parent, do not expect any sympathy or understanding from friends whose children are chasing material comforts and prestige in their post-college pursuits. On both coasts, military service is seen as some aberration of the consumer-striving life plan. Try finding a wealthy Republican (Senate, House, corporation?) whose child is in the military.

Well I live on the east coast and there is a lot of military support. I have found many parents who are supportive of kids who choose a military life.

John McCain - one son at the Naval Academy and one son Active Duty Marines who just returned from being deployed.

The higher tier the college is, the fewer ROTC students--and some Ivys have no programs, or shared programs with a state school down the road.

Rest assurred if you daughter at Harvard would like to join ROTC they have room for her in the Battalion over at MIT. Ivy leaguers are welcome to join a cross town unit. No one is left out.

[lextalionis]

Thank you again for everyone's invaluable input.

My S read this thread yesterday as well as the wonderfully helpful PMs we received. I will have him read today's thread as well. I completely understand fauve's take on things. One of my main concerns is that my son's decision to join ROTC is not based in any way on some misty-eyed, glorified view of the military or war.

I am convinced now that my son's decision to join ROTC at Berkeley is for the right reasons. He has decided to join the AFROTC (AF, like his grandfather) and has already contacted the Lt. Cmdr. at Cal. He seems just as excited about the AFROTC program (the aviation studies courses, the physical training, the leadership opportunities) as he is about the incredible Engineering courses available at Berkeley.

In addition to printing out this thread and the PMs for my S to read, I also printed out a Cal Berkeley campus news from 2002 which discussed the cultural anomalies between attending a liberal school like Berkeley and being enrolled in ROTC. The students interviewed then were just like my son now: they could care less if other people don't "approve" or if people are going to demonstrate against the military. In fact, I will quote one of the cadets who summed up the cadets' mentaility best:

"It's not about who's patriotic and who's not. I think Berkeley's very patriotic in the original sense of the word. This country is a democracy, and true patriotism is to voice your own opinion and question things, not blindly follow your leaders." Mike Seltzer ' 02

Bottom line, my son considered the service academies, but decided "full immersion" wasn't the way to go for him. However, he was still drawn to the military aspect of "civilian" campuses. When we went to our local admissions talk by Stanford with alumni reps, etc., he voluntarily and enthusiastically went to speak with an alum who had been in ROTC at Stanford. Also, when we visited Stanford, our "host," dorm buddy was in ROTC and spoke to my son about it then.

If my son attended a private university, he would have joined ROTC because my H would not agree to pay for the difference between Berkeley and a private university (even if we could take out the loans to make up the difference). When my S made his final decision to attend Berkeley (over Duke), I thought his interest in ROTC would go by the way side because we can afford it, and his portion to pay was not insurmountable. Turns out I was wrong!

Fauve, I frankly had the same perceptions as you regarding ROTC and elite universities. My whole time at Cal in the 80's I can't recall every meeting anyone in ROTC or even knowing Cal had an ROTC center on campus. Even though my S will not be attending Stanford, I think meeting ROTC guys from there really had an impact on my S with respect to dispelling the notion that only the "not so bright" or "very poor" people join ROTC.

Will he be in the minority at Cal as a member of ROTC? You bet, but he doesn't care. He looks forward to the physical and leadership training most of all. Given his love of Scouting and everything that went with that (the leadership training, the discipline, the "chain of command"), I believe he will thrive in that environment.

As far as after graduation, that is still a mystery to me, personally. Why would a highly intelligent student who will undoubtedly have excellent employment opportunities in the civilian sector upon graduation choose to have his life dictated by the military for a minimum of 4 years after graduation? That's the part I still cannot fully grasp, but that's my problem, not my son's. He (apparently) wants to become an Officer in the Air Force and everything that entails.

My mind keeps racing back to my first date with my husband . . . we saw the movie Platoon (about the Vietnam War for those of you whom may not have seen it). As a very recent graduate of Berkeley dating a fairly recent graduate of a military school, you can just imagine the "discussion" after the movie (me: antiwar; him:war supporter/entirely pro-military). It's a miracle we ever went on a second date! But, I suppose it comes back to Cadet Seltzer's wise-beyond-his-years' comment: there are many forms of patriotism, and the Cal Berkeley campus embodies so very many of those forms.

Thank you again to all of who contributed to this thread. As you can tell, I'm still "coming to grips" with my son's decision. But one constant remains: I am so very proud of him and the man he has become. My husband and I raised him to make his own decisions and boy is he showing us he's ready to do just that!

[huguenot]

lextalionis--

I am so happy you are coming to grips with your son's motivations and goals. I think it is an admirable and noble thing for a young man to desire to serve his country - to do something harder, rather than easier, to do something selfless. And in our area, lots of people feel that way!

One of the hardest things about raising sons (and I have a bunch of boys!) is to realize that they are becoming, must become, men. And letting them do that. And not just letting them, but rejoicing when they do.

[PackMom]

Well put(about sons) ,Huguenot.
We've known from way back that S would go into one of the military branches. When he got the NROTC scholarship, it became real. I pacified my worries by thinking "He'll be on a ship. He'll be fine".

Now that he will graduate/commission in one short year, he has set his sights on a much more dangerous path within the Navy that is pretty scary for me. Evenso, I'm hoping that he gets in when service selection time rolls around. He has worked so hard for this.

When they are little, we tell them that they can be anything they want to be and they believe us. He's 21, a man. Who am I to tell him he can't pursue this thing that he has spent so much time and effort working to achieve?

We will cheer him on with smiles on our faces and prayers in our hearts.
It's the best thing we can do for them.

[fauve]

JustamomofFour-

"Oh my-you do know alot about the military..." How amazingly condescending to presume knowledge of the situation.

No, I do not "have a friend of a friend of a friend who went throught ROTC". I have a precious, older child finishing a 4th year in the military, and multiple deployments, after ROTC at another top Ivy.

This officer has had significant changes in personality from the intensity of war experiences. I believe young people should be clearly informed that their lives will not be all Tom Clancyesque intrigue, and their four years may extend to many more. (These are FACTS that are not always covered by recruiters.)

Kudos to those whose worries about a deployed loved-one can be restrained to the level of hiking accidents and road travel worries. The rest of us do worry 24/7 and acknowledge the daily/hourly dangers our troops face.

The FACTS of who is serving (besides McCain's 2 sons--any other examples?), and an interesting debate, can be found in the book: "AWOL The Unexcused Absence of America's Upper Classes from Military Service--and How it Hurts our Country" by Roth-Douquet and Schaeffer (Collins 2006).

Glad to hear you have support for the military. In my town, the Repubs shudder at the thought of their little darlings-or mine- serving the country (and seem to think those jobs are for the poor or unwise) and encourage a continuation of the tradition of investment banking and country club life, while the Dems shake their heads at patriotism and head to yoga.

Please be kind to posters, and allow us our warnings to ROTC parents. Assumptions based on minute tidbits of information gleaned on searches are rarely accurate.

[JustAMomOf4]

fauve - from the bottom of my heart - you and your child have my very best wishes. I misread your tone and I offer you my apologies.

Anyone who aspires to join ROTC, or a service academy and become an officer needs to go in with eyes wide open.

I have had plenty of parents ask me how I could allow - yes, allow - my daughter to apply to West Point. How can I not? She knows what is going on and what the risks are. She also knows about the benefits - but that I mean the opportunity to serve her country, be a part of a team, be a leader to our soldiers who deserve the best leadership we have to give them.

I cope by trying to keep everything in perspective. Unlike you - my daughter is not there yet and you are right, if and when she is there I will probably feel differently. I watched my sister-in-law struggle through her son's two deployments - Afghanistan and Irag. It is tough to be a parent on the sideline.
No one has more empathy for the struggles of our soldiers than I do. I too am angered by folks who "support the troops" but refuse to put up support. Those who question us as parents and who discourage their own children from the service.

When your child chooses a dangerous profession, it is difficult to be a parent. To be on that sideline with a mixture of pride and fear. My best wishes to you and yours.

As far as Ivy's and ROTC goes - that has been an issue since Vietnam. First the excuse was because of the Vietnam war - now their excuse is because of the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy.

[lextalionis]

@fauve - Thank you for the book reference. I will be buying a copy at the earliest opportunity. Also, thank you for sharing your son's experience. Although I am "at peace" with my son's decision, I still am concerned that he has the "Tom Clancyesque" view of the military to which you refer.

@JustAMomof4 - I think you're spot on with your comments about the inherent tension between the Ivies and ROTC. Princeton's Parent Manuel "allowed" ROTC to include a blurb which was directly followed by Princeton's expression of its disapproval of ROTC due to their discriminatory practices.

As I stated, my son has a very strong character and thank goodness: he's heading into the lion's den of anti-military sentiment in neighboring San Francisco!

[dank08]

Question:

The school I'm going to does not have ROTC there, but has an agreement with schools that are about an hour and a half away. How does that work?

[PackMom]

That's known as a cross-town affiliate. I was always under the impression that you would be required to attend all ROTC activities i.e. classes, labs, PT's at that school with the rest of the battalion. An hour and a half away seems awfully far for that and would be hard to maintain along with your schedule at your own school. . You should definitely contact the cross-town school's ROTC office to get more information about how it would work in your specific situation.