GEORGIA adopts new Math approach - Page 4

ucsd_ucla_dad · 05-30-2008, 01:10 AM

My Ds' HS implemented a similar 'integrated math' series that they were pushing somewhat but I was wary about it and had my Ds take the traditional math series instead (they offered both - I'm glad it wasn't a 'forced' change). I think the school abandoned the 'IM' series after a few years - I don't think it was very successful.

I don't understand why one state/district that's thinking about major changes like this can't learn from other districts that have already tried the same change only to see it fail for some reason (even if it's just because the parents don't accept it). Maybe they get so desperate to improve the skills/scores that they start grasping at straws instead of determining and focusing on the root causes (poor preparation up through middle school/HS, students not interested in learning, incompetent teachers, unsupportive family).

jessiehl · 05-30-2008, 09:12 AM

I do not understand why people think integrated math is inherently a bad thing. It always depends on how it's implemented. It does not have to jump around without rhyme or reason, or involve poorly-written textbooks. It does not preclude a strong understanding of algebra and geometry (it didn't for me).

The problem is that it's often implemented poorly. For some reason, when we try to do innovative things in school curricula, we think we need to dumb down the content, I guess to balance out the innovation or something. Kentucky's early-90s education reforms, IMO, were a great example of this. They stressed writing skill in all subjects and critical thinking ability. Great idea in theory. Unfortunately, they decided that in order for people to learn these crucial skills, the content that they were applying them to needed to be ridiculously rudimentary.

Quote:

Luckily I had taught her to read the year before with "hooked on phonics".

Of course, not everything works well with every kid. For instance, I thought phonics-based approaches were a complete joke when I was a kid (and our particular phonics-based program, "Writing to Read", screwed up my spelling for years). But they seemed to work well for some other kids.

kelsmom · 05-30-2008, 09:28 AM

Perhaps integrated math *can* work. However, the evidence I have seen of programs in place in many, many schools is that what is being offered for IM does not work. I will also admit that the traditional program my district is now offering instead of IM, while better than the IM program that was used, is also substandard. Why? Because it is dumbed down. Given a choice between the IM & traditional programs, though, I would pick the traditional - at least it includes more algebra than the IM that was used.

Our IM program was based more on exploration & included a strong emphasis on writing. It jumped around, covering a bit of something then moving on. The idea was that students would see it again later & build on it. Instead, students got to chemistry, physics, calc with weaknesses in basic skills so glaring that they could not handle these subjects. Sure, some kids have an innate sense & were okay ... but too many were not.

BCEagle91 · 05-30-2008, 09:52 AM

Perhaps Georgia should ask AOPS for guidance on math instruction.

With some kids, you can just give them a textbook and let them run with it. With others, sitting down with them and just talking about math in the form of problems, puzzles, and sometimes even curriculum can help.

I bought a set of K12 textbooks in the early 1990s: Scott Foresman's Exploring Mathematics. I also had a set of Sets and Numbers by Suppes. I saw the integrated stuff in the late 1990s but it wasn't attractive because of some of the problems raised here.

These days, school districts can just order Singapore Math. It' a pretty cheap too compared to US textbook products. Finding the teachers to teach it might be hard though.

CBK · 05-30-2008, 10:39 AM

^^ yes, agree on the Singapore math idea.

Just an anecdotal experience, I followed some of tokenadults suggestions and have delved into this math issue in depth recently. We did an on line free assessment from Alexis(sp?) for my 13 year old. The GAPS and I mean HUGE gaps in fraction knowledge from Everyday math elementary ed. It explains the issues we are dealing with now with going to abstract math in algebra. When you investigate "how" the US teaching methods of fractions/division in the early grades it is clear why many kids have an issue jumping from elementary math to middle school math and possibly the serious decline in standardized scores in the 8th grade level. I also have a 2nd and 4th grade child both are now doing fractions, so I see the lack of continuity from fractions to division to number line as one in the same. Perhaps an issue also is how grade level introduction topics seem to be introduced in isolation. Too many topics a mile wide inch deep. Also at issue with the US method is lack of precision clean clear answer, I would cringe how many times I heard it "doesn't matter the answer, it is in the knowing how to get there, you can use a calculator" Well it does matter.

BCEagle91 · 05-30-2008, 10:48 AM

The Scott Foresman text do a good job with fractions and the relations to percents, ratios and decimals so that the child is able to move back and forth between different representations. Those texts were mainstream texts just before the publishing industry went with the rain forest approach.

I think that technology has its place in the curriculum. Our son took a few courses which required Mathematica and he had to learn how to program it and answer problems in it. I hate using calculators (other than my 30-year-old HP-67) because it takes so long to learn how to use them and they aren't intuitive. But I was thinking of buying a new "calculator" to do some math with my daughter. I found a place that sells Pickett slide-rules and I think that it would be a lot of fun learning how to use it and how it works.

BTW, there's a complete set of K-university math curricular materials at this website for those that want to see what kinds of things are used in the UK. Or for those looking for additional stuff for their kids.

Centre for Innovation in Mathematics Teaching - Mathematics Enhancement Programme

tokenadult · 05-30-2008, 01:13 PM

I'll just comment about something else that is good, rather than simply decry the bad. Thanks for the participants who have posted links to various materials.

I'm teaching my second son (fifth grade age, and self-reportedly not a particularly math-avid learner) out of the sixth grade level Singapore Primary Mathematics

Singapore Math

and I am AMAZED at what interesting and thoughtfully presented geometry problems there are in textbook 6B (for the second semester of sixth grade). Anyone who learned that content thoroughly could do well on any SAT problem in geometry, for example. My older son skipped the last two years of the Singapore Primary Mathematics series and was studying a formal course in algebra at my second son's current age, so I hadn't noticed before just how good the Singapore books are at the late elementary level (which looks like the late middle school level in United States terms). Check them out if you are looking for good math materials.

ellemenope · 05-30-2008, 01:25 PM

So, tokenadult, Singapore Math looks to be two years ahead of US math (if late 6th = late middle or 8th)? Amazing!

tokenadult · 05-30-2008, 01:28 PM

Yep, there is some algebra and quite a bit of geometry in sixth grade in the Singapore Primary Mathematics series. It's definitely a complete "prealgebra" course, getting students ready to take an algebra 1 course in seventh grade (which is what happens in Singapore for all students, as it did in Taiwan when my wife grew up there and still does today).

boomu · 09-23-2008, 04:51 PM

My brother is a freshman in high school and in his second year of integrated math. It's awful, a trainwreck, as bad as it gets....
The problem isn't necessarily the IDEA of integrating math, but in the actual pedagogy. In our school district, there were NO textbooks last year(for IM classes). There was nothing concrete, no examples, no hint at what a question was aiming for. Fine if you are an intuitive thinker whose name happens to be ummm...Pythagoras? But for your average kid, not honors or remedial, it was just an awful experience. Due to parent feedback I.E. revolt, a textbook was adopted that has actual examples of problems, and practice questions, and even some answers in the back. Yippee!!! Unfortunately, the textbook is not considered part of the curriculum and does not have to be used by the teacher. WHAT???? We spent how much money on a textbook that hasn't been opened in the first month and a half of school?? So, all my brother gets are daily worksheets with a few problems that may or may not make much sense. He used to love math and now hates it and is doing poorly. I feel bad that he could get bad grades on his transcript all because of this IM approach. I am a hs senior and I try to help him sometimes but even I get confused! My mom is going to enroll him in an accredited Algebra I course on the side, to ensure that he gets a good foundation. It will be interesting to see if he performs better in the traditional class. Where we live the county will not allow students to change into the traditional math, once in integrated, always in integrated.

BCEagle91 · 09-23-2008, 07:43 PM

One of the things that I have against integrated is that teenagers can have a lot of stuff going on in their lives and doing things in discrete pieces provides for far more flexibility in making up a class where there was a problem or accelerating by taking the discrete class somewhere.

Keilexandra · 09-23-2008, 07:47 PM

Interesting to read all the negative experiences with IM. I attend a charter school that uses the Integrated Math curriculum (with a placement test pre-entry, which is how I'm taking AP Calc AB as a junior after completing Math 3) and we have had very good results. Even if a student is coming from a weaker middle school and starts out in a regular Math 1 class, he/she can still take Calculus Concepts (or possibly AP Calc) as a senior.

I also have classmates from a nearby district that uses IM starting in middle school, and many of them go from Math 2 in 8th grade to Math 1 in 9th grade. Success depends far more on the teachers than the curriculum.

BCEagle91 · 09-23-2008, 08:09 PM

A good textbook can help overcome a bad teacher with self-motivated students. It's a lot tougher for a bad textbook to overcome a bad teacher.

We have three elementary schools in our district and we're using Everyday Math. One parent from one of the schools complained about the lack of learned math facts (from practice) with the program. Other parents said that their kids had additional worksheets that supplement Everyday Math. Basically two schools felt that EM was insufficient so their staff added additional materials. But the other school didn't (it would have been more work for the teachers). The local teaching metrics didn't include the additional material so the third school wasn't required to provide additional materials.

kelsmom · 09-23-2008, 09:35 PM

I suppose not all IM programs are created equal, and that is an issue. Some folks seem to have no issues with IM. I suspect their curriculum includes more higher level algebra than the programs in my area. Boomu, I sympathize with your brother. It must be very frustrating for him! Your mom is on the right track. Supplementing his math with a traditional algebra program will really help (plus, it will remind him of what he actually likes about math). My S had tons of algebra at his parochial middle school, so we didn't need to supplement (since precalc is traditional). He did, however, do a traditional geometry online class to supplement.

dfisher · 09-15-2009, 10:19 PM

The implementation of this has been disastrous! The teachers are not prepared to teach the new math and the students are struggling. My childs teacher told me that she doesn't have time to ensure that they understand because the state will give an exam at the EOY and she has to complete the entire curriculum, so she is mandated to a timeline. The book doesn't have examples and she even has a hard time with the tasks. My child is smart and has done well in math throughout school. She scores well on the CRCT and now I am very afraid that this will ruin her college future. The tasks that the teacher has a hard time with is worth 25% of her grade. The EOY test given by the state is worth 35%. The teachers were asked not to assist with the tasks, but to let the kids work in groups. No one knows what they are doing!!!

Good idea to want to introduce critical thinking but horrible implementation.