Another applicant rejected from all Ivies.

[MomofWildChild]

None of the kids who got into Ivy League schools from my kid's prep school were packaged in the manner you are describing. They weren't perfect students, one was first gen American, two were extremely intellectual "wild children" who happened to be top athletes..... One was so stumped on what to write for his main essay, that the night before the "drop dead" due date he wound up writing about sitting there trying to think of a topic. Few or maybe even none took a full-slate of APs. They took the ones that matched their interests- if the kid hated science, he didn't take AP physics. He's still at an Ivy.

[collegealum314]

@anotherNJmom: Well, I don't think the ivy kids are packaged in quite that way. Most are taking the hardest courseload their schools offer (or close enough that they aren't avoiding classes due to weakness.) Manipulating your way to a high GPA would be somewhat tough. Although I did see a few kids abuse an extra credit option in one of my harder classes, I think this is somewhat rare. However, I do feel that EC's, especially community service and leadership EC's (not including election to student government) are easier to package than the other components of admissions. And a lot of ivy kids are savvy enough to write their essays from a point-of-view that resonates with the value system of adcomms.

[MomofWildChild]

My kid wrote his UChicago essay from a point of view that would NOT resonate with a Chicago adcom, but he got in EA AND as a transfer student (did not wind up attending). I think it is almost impossible to generalize about who gets in to highly-selective schools and who doesn't. There are many, many kids at even the top schools who have qualities other than perfect grades or leadership positions. The bottom line is that there are way more qualified, talented applicants than there are places at these schools, and it is subjective to a large extent. For example, I have noticed that Brown doesn't take a lot of the same kids who get into its peer schools. From my son's prep school, Brown was the one hardest to get into.

[xiggi]

I can't put my finger on it, but there's a double standard here for someone who tries to take the traditional route --- keep kid in public (magnet) school and supplement at home and support the further development of his interests (science, medicine research in this case) beyond what the school can provide --- and someone who takes a much more nontraditional path --- to homeschool and travel the world to fulfill educational goals and passions.

I do not see any double standard at all, and I see few parallels between the two stories, except that both made it into a newspaper. It does not take much reading to uncover the amazing differences in the stories. From one family, the journey was most important; for the other, it was all about the destination. One family worried until the end about their decision to travel to an unknown path; the other picked a path that no longer led to an Ivy-covered Shangri-La.

The different outcomes is yet another testament that adcoms are not as easily fooled as many would like us to believe. And, fwiw, it is not an accident that the people who still believe with unabated passion in "packaging" and especially in "yesterday's packaging" are the most vocal complainers in April. To bad for them that adcoms figured out all those fabricated and mostly individual passions build on Suzuki classes and dojos disappeared as soon as the admissions were earned and that all those SAT classes masquerading as Sunday classes rarely translated into academic brilliance. There is a world of difference between showcasing passion and brilliance and .. creating it. No amount of "packaging" can change that!

There is a reason why paint-by-the-numbers paintings are not hanging in a museum but in someone's kitchen.

[collegealum314]

^^If the kid in question wasn't the real thing, he wouldn't have gotten into Caltech.

[calmom]

Originally Posted by wedgedrive

F.O.LTS, I thought students pretty much HAD allow confidentiality for their recommendations, that colleges would dismiss them otherwise! i have been wondering how people knew if their rec's were good or not! Am I naive or what?

My d. refused to sign the confidentiality waiver and got into her reach colleges. (Net result: 12 applications, 9 acceptances, 2 waitlists, 1 rejection from an Ivy). My legal background tells me that there is no way that the colleges could justify treating one set of recs differently than another premised on a student's waiver of legal rights. I think that waiver is there more for the sake of the teachers who write the recs than the ad com.

I know I represent a minority opinion. but I think given the importance of recs in the admission process, it's far too risky to leave that piece of the application process open to mistakes, such as a teacher who writes the name of the wrong school on the rec or who has serious grammatical or factual errors. My d. also got 3 letters and for most colleges chose the best 2 out of 3 to submit. I am firmly convinced that one letter in particular stood out and helped tipped the scale in favor of her admission at her reach colleges.

That being said, I also think its silly to speculate as to what was in Ghosh's letters The process of Ivy admission is far too competitive to attribute a rejection to a bad letter; the Ivy's do not need a reason to reject... they just need strong reasons to admit. As I noted before, I think this is a matter of fit -- a very strong math/science applicant who is a great fit for for Cal Tech may not stand out with the type of "leadership" or "initiative" credentials that Harvard or similar schools are looking for. Nothing wrong, just didn't make the cut when competing against other students who managed to stand out a little more.

I'd note that a rec. letter can be great, but there is always going to be some other student whose letters proclaim the student as amazing, along with specific facts and anecdotes to back that up. (That's what my d. had from one of her teachers). But even "amazing" by itself is not going to get the student in -- it is the application as a whole. Again.... it's not a matter of reasons to reject, its the "different" and "special" factor that is so elusive when competing in an applicant pool filled with top-flight students.

[mathmom]

Maybe there are kids getting into Ivy's via packaging, but I don't see it at our school. The kids work hard, some do Intel projects, most take a lot of APs (6 to 8), but not every possible AP. I can tell you, that if I'd had anything to do with it, Mathson's essay would have been a lot better than it was!

I don't see that the subject of the OP did so badly. He got into Caltech, which looked like a much better fit for him than Harvard, if the info in the article was accurate.

[broetchen]

^
This is really interesting!
Anyone else have experience with waiving the confidentiality on recs?

[tokenadult]

The waiver is a matter of the student giving up a right (set up by federal law) to access the recommendation letter from college files after admission, but the student signing the waiver has NO effect on a teacher's right to show the letter to someone else--for example the student. A teacher could readily write up a good recommendation after the student signs the waiver, mail off the recommendation, and then show the recommendation to the student. Word processing files are great like that: the teacher can show the student a copy of what was sent.

[jazzymom]

The parallels as I see them are: two extremely intelligent students each engaged in their chosen academic passions and two families who made decisions and sacrifices to further their children's development and education through the high school years and toward the best possible education they could obtain post-secondary. Both wind up profiled in newspaper stories and discussed on CC.

It was noted in the thread on the Chicaco girl that her parents gave up time and attention to their business to homeschool their daughter and invested resources, and time of course, in helping her pursue her intellectual passions and talents. Trips to Ireland to study the Irish harp, to China to study Taoism, to Tibet to study Buddhism to allow the D to develop her intellectual interests. Being able to take time from their work to take her to Shakespeare plays and opera and to facilitate whatever was needed to allow her to take her ideas and dreams to the maximum. Her story brought bravos and kudos nearly universally on that thread.

The Ghoshes followed their own path to educate their bright kid the best way they knew how, finding a magnet math-science school, aiding him in the chemistry EC that interested him, the dad even quitting his job so he could drive the boy to EC activities and a research internship. Nothing in the article I read indicated that his interest in science and research was thrust on him by a domineering father. And it's not my perception of this student that his participation in those ECs were the result of hollow "paint by number" admission goals rather than genuine interest on his part. So this dad sacrificed time and income to help with his son's intellectual development and academic goals and far from receiving any kudos, he gets the "bad helicopter parent award from many on this thread. I just disagree.

I don't think one can really say that the different admissions outcomes in these two cases are due to adcoms not being "fooled" by one of the applicants and divining the authenticity in the other.

They are totally different candidates for admission. No doubt the colleges that rejected or waitlisted G had way more East Asian male, math-science oriented students with research and chemistry ECs than they had space for. (And doesn't waitlist imply that he was an applicant they considered accepting, but didn't have room for, not that they scorned his app as inauthentic.) And the accomplishments of the Chicago woman were certainly unique, from the Irish harp world championship to the Shakespeare plays taught to younger students, and entirely deserving of the many acceptances she received.

And don't forget that G was accepted by Caltech, Duke and Rice. Did he just manage to fool those adcoms or did they perhaps see something worthwhile in his app that made them want him?

In any case, I don't think that either the student or the father deserves to be verbally drawn and quartered for making admission to Harvard a goal and failing to achieve it.

[bleedblue12345]

"But the biggest disappointment came from Harvard University, which Ghosh had chosen as his "dream school" based on the course offerings."

If your seriously banking on admission to Harvard than GOOD LUCK.

Life isn't fair people. Get over it.

[broetchen]

@tokenadult
What about viewing the recommendation BEFORE it is sent? I'm thinking of students who may be using non-traditional teachers for recommendations ---individuals that don't have much experience writing for college admissions and where "pre-screening" may be necessary.

[xiggi]

Jazzymom, you're obviously entitled to your very distinct interpretation of the facts related to the Chicago and Austin families, as well as your rather creative interpretation of my prior post.

There is no reason for us to have to agree on the lessons to be learned from those two stories.

All I can say is that I found the outcomes quite predictable, and that I have few doubts that, unfortunately, stories similar to the 2007 Ghosh or 2007 Jian Li sagas will continue to adorn College Confidential in years to come.

[jazzymom]

Thanks, xiggi. I also think that you are entitled to your distinct and creative interpretations. I hail your prognostication talents. Of course, it makes it a lot easier to predict outcomes once the results have been published.

[anotherNJmom]

^^If the kid in question wasn't the real thing, he wouldn't have gotten into Caltech.

Exactly. The very unique feature in caltech admission is they have current student as the admission officers. And they are for 'REAL' not for window dress. Each student officer's vote has the same weight as a staff or falculty admission officer. These highly intelectual kids were high school senior themselves not long ago, they sure can distinct the 'real' or 'fake' passion.

That said, caltech is so unique and concetrate on educate future scientists, not politicians, not funder raisers, not social workers, etc. Most other schools are more main stream, I can see the different approach in admission process.

But to say this kid is all 'packaged' up is not 'fair', quit number of kids who without hook get into the HYP are 'packaged' to tee. MomofWildChild, the three examples you gave all have some kind hook more or less. ...

@collegealum and MomofWildChild, may be you are right for most of these kids. But I've seen and heard a fair share number of type kids described in my post who got into HYP. Yeah, they are smartest, bestest, but not quite the nicest.

As far as his dad quit job to drive him around for after school ECs, I see nothing wrong. There is no difference with some family mom stay home driving kids around, take part in PTA, talk to school teachers and consolers, etc. Besides, as some mentioned his work at different state as his family. ... May be Ghosh is too smart for the taste of some of CC posters. ... so what they don't accept him, their lose!