Is a top dream school really better than a free ride at a state school?

[csleslie51]

There is already a 119 page discussion on this Your kid takes the top scholarship instead of the top school. What's next?

[SlitheyTove]

Our (current?) family philosophy is more along the lines of rocketman08. Money is fungible. As Homer Simpson's brain says, it can be used to buy goods and services So, it can pay for full-tuition expensive school, or it could be used to pay for part-ride less-expensive school plus grad school, or help with a down payment on a first house, or support during a nonpaying internship year, or study abroad, or etc etc etc.

Yeah, it could also be used for granite countertops in the kitchen, but I swear I'm really not thinking about that. Really!

[JustAMomOf4]

First of all, the # of students who could get a full ride (merit aid) is very small

no so - most kids who are strong enough to get admitted to an Ivy would get a full ride elsewhere. If they didn't it's because they didn't look hard enough.

[Dad II]

Jonri, your kids are so lucky to have parents like you. Not everything should be analyzed by dollar and cents.

Even if we would do analyze this by dollar and cents, I would think OP picked the extreme cases.

From what I have heard, all the PHY, SMC etc are all offering excellent FA packges for low income families like us.

[scout59]

Not to be too snarky, DadII, but you keep referring to yourself as "low-income." Didn't you once say you made over $100,000 a year? I don't consider that low-income, and in some places that's even high-income!

[Dad II]

To #18.

Let's say 80 of the top 100 schools give merit aid and each of them gives 20 full rides. That is only 1600 out of about 200,000 students (assume 2000 per school).

That is way lower than the admission rate at any top elite schools.

[Christcorp]

The only 2 comments I want to make about this topic is:

1) Our country's economic classes don't just include the Poor and the Extremely wealthy. The problem is defining the words. I don't consider a 22 year old coming out of college starting pay of $35,000 as being poor. I do however consider a 35 year old married couple with 2 kids and a combined income of $35,000 as being poor. Especially if they live in particular towns. As such; while I do sometimes seek out the advice of my investment broker, I don't necessarily consider myself as wealthy. I do my own taxes and accounting. (When you are born poorer than anyone else you know; and decide to NEVER be that way again; you tend to learn and become motivated on how to increase your wealth). The point however is; there are a lot of people in the middle of the commonly defined words of Poor and Wealthy who make up the majority of our classes.

2) As far as taking a full ride to a public school or paying for a top dream school; that depends on 3 factors.
a: For what I want to study; can the free ride provide the same quality of education I am looking for? Many times probably yes. Sometimes not.
b: Is what I want to study almost guaranteed to require graduate school or beyond. E.g. Lawyer, Doctor, etc... If so, then it makes just about no sense whatsoever to pay for the elite school if you can get a full ride to a public school. Save your money for the graduate or professional school you are going to need. When you graduate and go job hunting, they are going to look at your highest degree.
c: It depends on how much the dream school is going to cost. I.e. If I can get a scholarship, merit, etc... for my dream school and when all is said and done, I will only have approximately $20,000 in loans when I graduate; that may be worth it instead of the full ride to a state school. $20,000 is the same as a car loan. Treated right, it can be paid off in 4-5 years. But, in order to take on that debt; even that low; it would have to be a school that I have very specific reasons for wanting to attend. My parents went there; The NAME; The location; etc... are not good reasons. If i really want to get into the world of science and technology, then paying $5000 a year for MIT is worth it over a full ride to University of Home. A degree in Art history, philosophy, or other liberal arts degree in a concentration that I'm NOT GOING TO GO INTO AS A PROFESSION, is not a reason to pay $20,000 a year or more (Assuming some scholarships), to attend Harvard or Yale.

Of course; this total discussion is based on the premise that we are talking about the 80% of Americans who are middle class and don't have the resources of a the 10% Millionaire who has no problem paying $200,000 for a college education; or the 10% poor who are given a lot of need based financial aid to go to just about any school. To both of these groups; almost any school is a "Free Ride".

[taxguy]

Jonri notes"Tax guy looks at a college degree as vocational training. Therefore, to him it makes sense to analyze the problem strictly from a dollar and cents point of view. Analyzed that way, it is foolish to go to dream school. "

Response: Oh contrare. I do value education and ideas. Are you saying that state schools don't give a good education in sound thinking and critical reading?

Franly, post 22 says it better than I could have responded to you.

[sax]

So I purposefully tried to stay to the facts describing my s's education at his state school. Class size, research opportunities, internships available to him, etc. So what is he missing that your kid at the Ivy has? He is going to classes, being taught by teachers that know much more about subjects than he does at this point in is life, has a great relationship w/profs, has met and worked next to people from all over the world, has opportunities for study abroad. Really, what is he missing?

[Christcorp]

Sax; what he and you are missing out on are "Bragging Rights". That's it. I can also tell you for a fact. YES, A FACT! That depending on what your degree is in; and at what level you aspire to succeed, attending an Ivy league school can actually be a hindrance to getting a job. I have seen it many times. And, as some one who has hired quite a few people in my time, it has gone through my mind a time or two.

Here's the deal. You get a degree in Business from the University of Michigan. You are looking for a job in Michigan with a quiet type start up company; import/export business; retail; wholesale; etc.... It doesn't really matter. The main point is; not EVERYONE is trying to get a job on Wall-Street. The majority of people aren't looking at working at the Mayo clinic; Fidelity Investments; Law Firm of Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz. Now; you have an individual with a degree in business from Harvard, Yale, etc... competing with the same University of Michigan graduate for this job; and there are many times where the company or firm WON'T hire the Harvard grad specifically for the reason that they fear they are going to use their company/firm as a stepping stone and leave when the first higher paying job comes along. They may see the University of Michigan grad more as a "LOCAL" kid who can become part of this company.

No, it doesn't always happen. And yes, there are times where someone will hire another based just on the name of the college they went to. The point is however, that not always is the ivy league type school always the better choice.

[Hunt]

"Are you saying that state schools don't give a good education in sound thinking and critical reading?"

I'm not Jonri, but the top private schools do this better. Is it enough better to make it worth the extra money? As I said before, how much "better" is a Lexus than a Camry? They're both very nice cars, but the Lexus really is better in a number of ways--but they may not matter to you.

[sax]

What evidence is there that the top schools do a better job at teaching critical reading and sound thinking?

[Christcorp]

Thank you sax for asking the question. You beat me to it. There is NO conclusive evidence that an Ivy league school does ANYTHING better than a public school; based SOLELY on the reason of them being that Ivy league school. There are plenty of times where the public school will give the student A BETTER EDUCATION!!! This, is a fact. Most everyone here has even agreed to that. if you want a degree in Archeology or Agriculture, the Ivy league school will not give you as good of an education as certain state schools. THAT IS A FACT.

The problem is; people have to rationalize the cost. When is the last time someone bought a $3000 Flat screen tv; $50,000 lexus; $50,000 rolex; etc... and said to you; "This isn't worth it, I should have bought the Ford".

There are definitely things about EACH SCHOOL IN THE COUNTRY that makes them one of the BEST!!!! No one school, or even group of 10-20, are the BEST school, or automatically BETTER than a public school.

[taxguy]

I think my initial post (post number 1) summarizes the benefits of attending an IVY or other top expensive school vs. that of a state school.

[Hunt]

My daughter is shopping for a new guitar. They come in all price ranges. They will all play musical notes, and all above a certain level will play notes very nicely. A lot of the choice has to do with "fit," and some less expensive guitars are better for certain purposes. However, there is an overall quality improvement as you go up the price ladder. At a certain point, the differences become small enough (to us) that the huge jump in price isn't worth it. I think colleges are the same way: there is an overall quality improvement as you move through the ranks. It doesn't apply to every characteristic of every school, but overall it's true. The key is to figure out what's important to you, what you're willing to pay for it, and where you can get the best deal on it.