Gifted/ADD?/now what...

[mom2three]

Long story short: because of issues DS#1 had his first two years of college, culminating with a diagnosis of ADD, we finally had DS#3 evaluated, because of concerns about his ability to be successful at college in the absence of the structure that we provide.

Diagnosis, ADD (no shock here) followed by medications.

One school year later (end of junior year of HS), DS#3 doesn't like the way the meds make him feel. He says they make him feel bored and anxious, even though (or because?) they do keep him from "daydreaming" and spacing out. He is gifted, and has always had trouble staying focused on stuff that doesn't interest him, and has terrible organization. Pre-meds, his grades were good, just not as good as they would be if he consistently paid attention, did his work and then turned it in.

Bottom-line: I love my boy just the way he is, and I don't want to medicate the joy and creativity from his life. I also believe that differences in brain-wiring are not necessarily defects, but part of the diversity of the human species. Since the medication was a pretty recent course of action, I don't think it will hurt him to choose non-med options.

OTOH, the concerns about coping with the organizational challenges of college remain. I want to help him create a skillset of routines and habits that will enable him to be successful. He has to develop systems that work for him.

Can anyone recommend books or tools directed at the child, not the parent, that might be helpful to a kid like this?

[menloparkmom]

All Kinds of Minds, by Mel Levine Is a great place to start.
here is a link to the books he has written
All Kinds of Minds

Tak a look at the website- it has lots of information for both of you.
All Kinds of Minds > Start

[emeraldkity4]

I like Mel Levine, also John Ratey has some tips
John J. Ratey, MD

[shawbridge]

If you wish to take him off the medication, you might consider homeschooling with a curriculum tied to his interests. And, I would strongly suggest some coaching on organization by someone experienced in working with ADD kids.

Jonathon Mooney and David Cole wrote a book called Amazon.com: Learning Outside The Lines: Two Ivy League Students With Learning Disabilities And ADHD Give You The Tools
, which is aimed at kids. Mooney (dyslexic and ADHD, IIRC) did terribly in school but ultimately transferred to Brown where he majored in English. [Sorry, I don't know how to rename the web-link]. He's seems to be a motivational speaker, talking about overcoming disabilities (I think). I think Cole also went to Brown but I don't remember his story.

My son is gifted and dyslexic but not ADD. The neuropsychologist who originally tested him told us that organizational skills were the hardest thing for kids with LDs to master. My son had an absolutely superb teacher in a program at a private middle school in our town. It was for 6 boys with high IQs and language-related learning disabilities. The teacher spent half a day with the 6 boys and they spent half the day in math, science, art, etc. But, she did English, social studies and what she called skills, which had a lot of organization in it. She said she never uses a system but helps each kid develop strategies that work for them. All the parents whose boys have her thinks of her as an angel sent to help their kids. My son now gets help from my wife's cousin, who also has helped a lot with work planning.

Incidentally, there is a summer course on how to work/study at Landmark HS or College in Beverly, MA. Landmark is a school for kids with dyslexia and ADD.

[cptofthehouse]

Many of them do not want to take the meds. Any kind of meds, and most us like our kids the way they are. However, the meds often help mitigate some of the symptoms that make our kids unacceptable in many situations, and unable to complete their work, stay organized and to plan out things. It is a juggling act. Unfortunately, the choice often comes down to taking the meds and getting through college or other course of study, or not taking them and floundering until they can get it together which is usually years. I see the same thing with mood disorder meds as well.

[mom2three]

Shaw -
I did homeschool all my kids through elementary school. With just one year remaining in high school, that's really not one of the options I'm considering. Also, he's doing well in high school, and I don't think that at this point homeschooling would address the issues that concern me, i.e., handling the organizational challenges of college without mom to make sure he puts his glasses on and finds his keys.

Cpt- I agree. That's pretty much what I'm saying. I was hoping that he would feel that the positive effects of the meds mitigated the negatives, but he just doesn't feel that way, so I am looking to other ways for him to address the issues that are his biggest stumbling blocks - organization and attentiveness.

[paying3tuitions]

Mom2Three, have you tried to work with the doctor try a different form or dosage of medicine? Some kids prefer taking the same dose as a half-amount twice daily in pill form, rather than use one extended release all-day capsule, because it lets them control their own day a bit more.

Have you had some adjustments since your S began his initial prescription? With feedback on how he feels, the doctor can be asked to modify the dose, the form, or the type of medication for your son.

[NYMomof2]

You may want to try fish oil supplements, which may be helpful for ADHD. I take a medical-grade supplement, omegabrite.com, and it completely cured a shoulder problem - pain and greatly reduced range of motion - that had existed for 10 months. There is some information on their site (testimonials and abstracts of research articles, linked on rhs of main page).

[condor30]

suggesting a book......"The Minds of Boys - saving our sons from falling behind in school and life." here's the link to the book's description:

The Minds of Boys - Book description - The Gurian Institute

[DonnaL]

I don't mean to derail the thread, but if anyone's interested, there have been quite a few commentaries arguing (persuasively, at least to me) that Gurian, and Louann Brizendine, and similar pop-science writers whose agenda is to demonstrate that boys' brains and girls' brains are "different" in fundamentally material ways requiring differing styles of education (including the return of public single-sex schools), consistently misrepresent and mischaracterize the scientific data. Which actually shows that the average differences between genders are tiny, and that the similarities are far greater. Far better, imo, to help every child learn in the way that suits him or her best, than to base education policies on gender stereotypes like those Gurian promotes. For example, this is from a New York Times magazine article on the subject a couple of months ago:

when it comes to education, gender is a pretty crude tool for sorting minds. Giedd puts the research on brain differences in perspective by using the analogy of height. “On both the brain imaging and the psychological testing, the biggest differences we see between boys and girls are about one standard deviation. Height differences between boys and girls are two standard deviations.” Giedd suggests a thought experiment: Imagine trying to assign a population of students to the boys’ and girls’ locker rooms based solely on height. As boys tend to be taller than girls, one would assign the tallest 50 percent of the students to the boys’ locker room and the shortest 50 percent of the students to the girls’ locker room. What would happen? While you’d end up with a better-than-random sort, the results would be abysmal, with unacceptably large percentages of students in the wrong place. Giedd suggests the same is true when educators use gender alone to assign educational experiences for kids. Yes, you’ll get more students who favor cooperative learning in the girls’ room, and more students who enjoy competitive learning in the boys’, but you won’t do very well. Says Giedd, “There are just too many exceptions to the rule.”

Despite a lack of empirical evidence, a cottage industry has emerged working the “boys and girls are essentially different, so we should educate them differently” angle. Several advocates like Sax have been quite successful commercially, including Michael Gurian, a family therapist, who published the best-selling “The Wonder of Boys” in 1996, a work he has since followed up with 15 more, including “Boys and Girls Learn Differently!” Through the Gurian Institute, he provides trainings to teachers, “showing the PET scans, showing the Spect scans” (a Spect scan is a nuclear imaging test that shows how blood flows through tissue), “teaching how the male and female brain are different,” Gurian told me. Like Sax, Gurian speaks authoritatively, yet both have been criticized for cherry-picking studies to serve their views. For instance, Sax initially built his argument that girls hear better than boys on two papers published in 1959 and 1963 by a psychologist named John Corso. Mark Liberman, a linguistics professor at the University of Pennsylvania, has spent a fair amount of energy examining the original research behind Sax’s claims. In Corso’s 1959 study, for example, Corso didn’t look at children; he looked at adults. And he found only between one-quarter and one-half of a standard deviation in male and female hearing thresholds. What this means, Liberman says, is that if you choose a man and a woman at random, the chances are about 6 in 10 that the woman’s hearing will be more sensitive and about 4 in 10 that the man’s hearing will be more sensitive. Sax uses several other hearing studies to make his case that a teacher who is audible to boys will sound too loud to girls. But Liberman says that if you really look at this research, it shows that girls’ and boys’ hearing is much more similar than different. What’s more, the sample sizes in those studies are far too small to make meaningful conclusions about gender differences in the classroom. The “disproportion between the reported facts and Sax’s interpretation is spectacular,” Liberman wrote on his blog, Language Log. “Dr. Sax isn’t summarizing scientific research; he’s making a political argument,” he wrote in an e-mail message. “The political conclusion comes first, and the scientific evidence — often unrepresentative or misrepresented — is selected to support it.”

Some more links:

The Problem with Gender-Based Education | New America Blogs

TAPPED Archive | The American Prospect

Language Log: Open-access sex stereotypes

Language Log: The vast arctic tundra of the male brain

Language Log: Girls and boys and classroom noise

Donna

[lindz126]

mom2three--I too am a mom to three :-D (2 of 3 w ADD)

s1 super organized and focused naturally, gifted, and self motivated, super student--he's going to Washington and Lee in Fall (he finds his ADD sibs rather frustrating at times but is usually tolerant as he doesn't get them fully

d1 naturally intuitive, disorganized, spacey, dreamy, unfocused--diagnosed w inattentive ADD in 5th grade, still held her own til 8th gr but then hit a wall academically--meds have helped her significantly which in turn helped her self esteem--she now perceives herself as smart and capable--a joy to see, taking AP classes and hoping to become a psychologist, she complains at times about side effects and so she chooses to not take meds on weekends, or school breaks, but appreciates that it helps to even the playing field so she can focus, manage time, study and succeed--I see the benefits but also feel torn about her being on meds--its been 3 yrs, I think as college students it may be one of those issues they need to figure out, hopefully with our input, her m.d.'s input--but ultimately her decision--part of letting them manage their lives--I also hope she maintains the close open dialogue we have so if she finds herself struggling she can acknowledge it and make needed adjustments.

s2--diagnosed adhd/gifted in kindergarten--has been in full time gifted programming which has reduced behavioral issues as he remains stimulated --teachers have worked well to recognize his need to "have the answer" and keep his mind challenged--in 6th grade and doing great, no real issues--no meds needed.

Shawbridge--will check out your book sounds interesting to me...

2 books I like :
"SURVIVAL GUIDE FOR COLLEGE STUDENTS WITH ADHD AND LD" by Kathleen Nadeau
"DRIVEN TO DISTRACTION AND ANSWERS TO DRIVEN TO DISTRACTION" by Edward Hallowell (he's a psychiatrist w ADD and demonstrates the wonderful qualities those with ADD have and subscribes to the belief (as I do) that brain differences are what makes the world go round--we'd lose so much without the creative ideas and energy of people with ADD.

[historymom]

I can only offer support for non-medication for your self-stated reasons. "I love my boy just the way he is, and I don't want to medicate the joy and creativity from his life. I also believe that differences in brain-wiring are not necessarily defects, but part of the diversity of the human species. Since the medication was a pretty recent course of action, I don't think it will hurt him to choose non-med options."

history is full of differently wired people who have had fabulous impact. Once in college your son will have more opportunity to focus on just what he is interested in. There are study groups that will help him to focus on other classes. Plus it seems that a lot of the people who have already posted have given you wonderful advice about how to prepare. Good luck and I applaud your/his choice to go non-medicated.

[Northstarmom]

""I love my boy just the way he is, and I don't want to medicate the joy and creativity from his life. I also believe that differences in brain-wiring are not necessarily defects, but part of the diversity of the human species. Since the medication was a pretty recent course of action, I don't think it will hurt him to choose non-med options.""

I'm gifted, ADD, older S is gifted, ADHD, younger is gifted, ADD.

All of us have tried meds at some point. All of us are very creative. None of us experienced a lack of joy or creativity when on meds.

All of us decided not to use meds, but for different reasons.

Older S, 24, -- decided in h.s not to use because he refuses to believe he is ADHD. I have no question about the diagnosis, and virtually anyone who is familiar with ADHD could diagnose him on sight because he's never still. On meds, he was more organized and less impulsive, which helped him stay out of trouble in school due to his not doing things that were funny, but justifiably irritated teachers. If he's in a job that plays to his skills, he can do fine off meds.

Younger S: Just didn't like the idea of meds. Doesn't even like to take aspirin when he has a headache. Due to high motivation for staying in college that he loves and keeping the gpa his scholarship requires, he has devised various organizational methods that work for him.

Me: Diagnosed with ADD at age 50. Have used meds off and on since then. Found meds useful when I had a job that required lots of travel and thus taxed my organizational skills. Have used meds to help me focus to do routine tasks that I hate. For instance, I used to thoroughly stress out and be horribly disorganized when preparing to entertain. As a result of a 3-year regular mediation practice, I'm much more relaxed and organized, so don't bother with meds. Would use them again, however, if I ever do a job in which I have to travel a lot because under that kind of stress, it is very hard for me to be organized.

BTW, while I did well enough as an undergrad and h.s. student to get my undergrad degree from an Ivy, it was in grad school that I really blossomed. That was because I could spend night and day concentrating on exactly what I loved.

I literally immersed myself in my field doing far more than was required, and was probably the top student in my graduate program. Had some problems getting around to doing my dissertation, but when I did it, I literally sailed through and had the best defense that my advisor had seen of the 50 dissertation committees he'd chaired.

[need2learn]

I could have written this post 2 years ago. Son was diagnosed ADHD in 10th grade, no shock to us and the many teachers through the years, but we decided to get professional help after grades started falling. He spent over a year trying different medications, different dosages, and a time spent refusing to take anything because he hated the side effects. It was hell. Finally, we found a med that worked FocalinXR and in a low dose, for my son has virtually no side effects. He takes it once a day and compliance is not a problem.

Is his room still a mess, does he leave every light on in the house, does he occasionally forget to turn in an assignment? Answer to all is yes, but there has been a marked improvement, to the point that I am no longer petrified of him leaving the nest to go off to college.

[Treetopleaf]

You've gotten some good advice. Trying the fish oil is also a great idea. I'd definitely experiment with the ADD med dosage, and if a lower dose doesn't ameliorate the side effects while still providing benefits then try other meds and again experiment with dosages. There are several of these meds, and they all seem to have subtly different effects on different people. Only then give up on meds altogether, if that's what is necessary. But for an ADD person, it's nice to have the option to get an assist when necessary.

I once read about an adult who would take the meds on days when he had to be organized, and skipped them on days when he had to be a free thinker. Once an adult learns how these drugs affect their own mind, they can make adjustments. Good luck!