Report: NYC spends $65M a year paying teachers pulled from classrooms

[mathmom]

tokenadult, I definitely don't have enough statistics knowledge to even begin to parse out the reasons. I just saw a graphic at some point and was a bit surprised. It was pretty striking. No links - it was a long time ago! However I don't think unions are the biggest problem with our schools, though I think they can contribute at times.

And really how bad does a teacher have to be before they need to be fired? I'd love all my kids' teachers to be great, but the reality is some will only be adequate. The librarian actually was a nice guy, and better with the older kids than with the younger ones. There were battles I chose to fight in my kids' elementary school - and he wasn't one of them.

[churning]

Don't bash the NYC teachers so fast. Have you ever been a NYC teacher? Well I'm a product of the NYC school system(OK 30+ years ago), but I have seen teachers both verbally and physically abused by students. A teacher's salary is not that great compared to the work needed. Teachers would be like indentured servents without unions and so would many other groups. Plus have you been to the post office lately? That's a speedy bunch!

[xiggi]

By and large though states with unionized teachers have better schools than those that don't.

Should we review the performance of the fifty largest public school districts? Should we look at the graduation rate of say .. Detroit public schools where unionism is king.

And, why are schools that are not and never will be unionized ... simply better. Unions routinely oppose every single measure that would make our K-12 better or mere competitive on an international basis. Unions oppose --and with visceral malice to boot-- any progressive ideas such as vouchers or competition. Unions only believe in a status quo that will ensure the protection of the mediocre and dishonest. We will never stop our continuous slide in performance as long as the power of the unions is drastically diminished through competition and absolute school choice.

Teachers' unions should have never been given the voice they received since the 1960s. If you're looking for a correlation, take a look at the absolute deterioration of the system in the past 50 years. Hardly a coincidence!

At a time when disappointing student performance, stark achievement gaps, and an ever-"flattening" world call for retooling American schools for the 21st century, the most daunting impediments to doing so are the teacher collective bargaining agreements that regulate virtually all aspects of school district operations. These agreements are a harmful anachronism in today's K-12 education system. The rubber rooms, and the reason behind their existence, are just more examples of a system that has forgotten the value of both ethics and education.

[afruff23]

Teachers unions do several things.

1. They make it harder to fire incompetent teachers.
2. They hold back schools from paying higher salaries to better teachers and thus continue the cycle of bad education for a particular school.
3. They take large portions of meager teacher salaries even if the teacher does not wish to join the union.
4. The NEA, the largest labor union in the US, is a public school teacher union which consistently opposes homeschooling and decries parents as inadequate for teaching their children when the statistics suggest otherwise (homeschoolers do better on standardized tests than public school kids).

[mommusic]

The problem is a system that takes years to determine guilt or innocence.

$65 million boggles the mind.

[churchmusicmom]

Lo, these many years ago, I was hired as a special ed teacher in the Pontiac, MI public schools. Upon signing my very first contract, I was told I had to also either join the teacher's union or not be hired again. That was my first exposure to teacher's unions and I did not like it.

Since I was so, well suspicious is the best word I can think of, of the whole teacher's union thing, I decided I should become involved. A "rep" spot became open at my school and it was offered to me and I was eventually appointed. So I attended meetings. Eventually, I became a Board member (special ed representative).

I was the lone voice (and, believe me, it was lonely) at times for actually considering the students. I remember being horrified at the idea that the union wanted to force teachers to NOT take their kids to the school library to read books because the school district was being forced (due to the plunging economy of the times) to cut back on library staff. When push came to shove, the student's well-being was definitely NOT the union's primary concern.

It left a very bad taste....

[mommusic]

In our excellent school system, the teachers are very well-paid, but most of them do have Master's degrees.

I like to think they have the students' best interests at heart, but a few years ago during salary negotiations that weren't going so well...the teachers staged a "slowdown." Didn't come in early or stay late to help students or do anything extra. It only hurt the students and was very bad for the district's reputation.

Even teachers that didn't want to do this succumbed to pressure from the union & other teachers.

[cptofthehouse]

I don't see what the big deal is. That is the whole purpose of unions. Give more job security. It is not the teachers' problem that they are no longer needed, wanted.

[mathmom]

Inner city school districts have a whole different set of problems from suburban ones. Most of the great teachers in our schools started off in NYC until they couldn't take the conditions any more. They were unionized in the city and they are unionized out here. They didn't suddenly become good teachers when they moved to the burbs.

[CT2010Dad]

"That is the whole purpose of unions. Give more job security. It is not the teachers' problem that they are no longer needed, wanted."

One of the reasons the US has historically done well economically (put aside the last two presidential terms when we've pretty much ignored basic economics...), is that we have a reasonably unfettered labor market. In France (where I spent a couple of years), it is virtually impossible to fire anyone, for any reason (gross negligence and criminal activity are of course fireable offenses, but the review process - not unlike that in NYC - is interminable and the employee is getting paid the entire time...). Sounds like great job security.

However, their unemployment rate hovers around 10%, v. that in the US which hovers around 5%. Why? Employers won't hire unless they are absolutely certain they need the person.

In the private sector, jobs get destroyed all the time (for the theory, see Joseph Schumpeter, who was Samuelson's professor at Harvard...) - this happens on Wall Street and Detroit. But they also get created in sectors of the economy that have a higher need. Unless someone has no skills (or is lazy or incompetent), there are jobs to be had (even in recessions). It is traumatic for a while for the individual of course, but then again, I think most of us would take being unemployed (and there are safety nets) for a brief period of time in this country to being fully employed at a subsistence level in a third world country.

Now, no one doubts that there needs to be due process when someone is accused of harassment or sexual misconduct - but we do need to question why the process is so tortured.

On the other hand, if someone is chronically late, what exactly are the rights that are being protected? In the private sector, no one is going to fire you for a couple of tardies, but at some point your supervisor is going to have a word with you. If the behavior continues, you get fired.

I'd be very interested in hearing why the union feels this type of behavior should be protected.

[ejr1]

You are right, we are the laughingstock of the world, but not because of the reasons you mention. We are the laughingstock because most of the world does not educate the masses and test them as we do. They know that they only use the results of their cream of the crop on math and science tests, while we include everyone, even kids in Special Ed, which they never would. They are laughing because they know that they will always be ahead of us because of this. We are comparing apples to oranges again. As to the teachers sitting and being paid, how quick we are to condemn the teachers especially when kids NEVER lie about anything! Remembr the Salem Witch Trials? A student in my building was trying to keep his friends out of trouble and decided that distracting the administration and teacher would take care of that, so he self-inflicted wounds and alleged that the teacher on hall duty did it. Luckily, he bragged to his buddies and was overheard, but if that hadn't happened? The police came and were about to cart the teacher off. Once of many examples. Have bad things happened? Yes, of course. But let's give teachers the same consideration that should be given everyone in this country. And BTW, I am not a proponent of unions, either, but with so many parents nowadays coming to school with their lawyers, I don't see any other out for teachers.

[xiggi]

They know that they only use the results of their cream of the crop on math and science tests, while we include everyone, even kids in Special Ed, which they never would. We are comparing apples to oranges again.

While this is often repeated by the unions, it is ABSOLUTELY false. People who can look at data with objectivity know that that canard has died a long time ago.

Do yourself a favor and google the US Department of Education pages that cover the international tests such as TIMSS or PISA. Actually, let me save you some time:

Source: Highlights From the Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study (TIMSS) 2003 Average student performance in the United States is compared to that of students in other countries that participated in each assessment.

All estimates for the United States are based on the performance of students from both public and private schools, unless otherwise indicated. All countries were required to draw random, nationally representative samples of students and schools.

The extensive data made available by tests such as PISA allow for deep analysis of the pools, including SES differences and level of schools. That is why it is so easy to debunk the myth of "creaming the pool" for the tests.

Think the US Department of Education would not use the argument of skewed testing as an excuse ... if it were available.

[tokenadult]

We are the laughingstock because most of the world does not educate the masses and test them as we do.

This statement is easily called into doubt by considering how much farther students advance during junior high in many countries, where attendance in junior high is free (that is, tax-subsidized, as here), compulsory, and universally provided. Most of the advantage several other countries have over the United States in international educational comparisons is racked up during the years when United States students are languishing in underchallenging middle schools.

[thumper1]

OK...I FINALLY read the article in the paper. Seems to me the issue in NYC is NOT the teachers' unions....it's the very slow processing of these issues. Xiggi...teachers unions do not support criminals or those who are causing harm to children. Teachers unions also do not support keeping poor teachers at all costs. To be honest, teachers unions (where I am) DO support the use of proper protocol to dismiss teachers for a variety of reasons. This article actually stated that the issue is one of the time that it is taking to process these issues...get them through the pipeline. It seems to me that the NYC schools should be looking at HOW they are doing this, and why it is taking so long. My guess is the unions would support that. Bottom line is that as long as there is a teacher on "leave", a permanent replacement cannot be hired. That is something our union is voracious about. If someone can't do the job...get rid of them...document what you need to do, and do it all in a timely fashion. The district is doing NO ONE any favors by dragging this process out (well except those getting paid while not working).

I have been part of committees that have studied education overseas and here. There are many issues contributing to performance differences...not JUST unions. There are cultural and social issues as well as differences in the structures of schools outside of the United States.

Yes, perhaps someone with strength in understanding would be able to interpret the differences easily, but to be honest, most folks look at the bottom line and not anything between the top and bottom.

[twinmom]

"I like to think they have the students' best interests at heart, but a few years ago during salary negotiations that weren't going so well...the teachers staged a "slowdown." Didn't come in early or stay late to help students or do anything extra. It only hurt the students and was very bad for the district's reputation"

Yep. Many teachers do come in early and stay late (with no extra pay) to help students and do extras. That is because they do have the students' best interests at heart. The reason that the teachers most likely did this was to nudge the district into moving with negotiations. More often than not, the taxpayers are not even aware of what's going on until it affects their children. It is their job to let the school board know. Quite often the taxpayers (parents) support the teachers and are upset that they are not being treated fairly by the school board that they elected.