Report: NYC spends $65M a year paying teachers pulled from classrooms

[xiggi]

Seems to me the issue in NYC is NOT the teachers' unions....it's the very slow processing of these issues. Xiggi...teachers unions do not support criminals or those who are causing harm to children. Teachers unions also do not support keeping poor teachers at all costs. To be honest, teachers unions (where I am) DO support the use of proper protocol to dismiss teachers for a variety of reasons. This article actually stated that the issue is one of the time that it is taking to process these issues...get them through the pipeline. It seems to me that the NYC schools should be looking at HOW they are doing this, and why it is taking so long. My guess is the unions would support that.

Thumper, there are plenty of sources available to find the correct information regarding the rubber rooms, starting with the circumstances of their creation. Nobody is denying that their current use is nothing short of appalling, and possibly inhuman. I think you'll have little problems in findings web sources that range from documentaries decrying the incredible bad sanitary conditions all the way to the documented exchanges between Weingarten and John Stossel. I also think that you'll have few problems finding the accounts of Sol Stern and copies of the chart that describes how many steps it takes for a teacher to be fired in New York according to the Collective Bargaining agreements. I believe that you'll find an intriguing parallel between the length of the chart and the reasons why teachers who no longer can have access to school children have to remain in the rubber rooms for such an extended period of time. You may also wonder what happened before more than 700 teachers were forced in the rubber asylum. What did they do ... ten years ago with pedophiles and the incompetent?

Of course, ALL the blame cannot be left at the door of the UFT. A lot of it should be sent to the former occupants of 110 Livingston Street. However, the unrelenting anti-education agenda of the unions in NYC --and throughout the nation-- is as identifiable as it is despicable. As much their role was highly justifiable in the early 1960s when the fate of a mostly women workforce required strong representation, today the pendulum has swung in the opposite direction, and this is costing the United States a heavy price.

[CT2010Dad]

"As to the teachers sitting and being paid, how quick we are to condemn the teachers especially when kids NEVER lie about anything! Remembr the Salem Witch Trials?"

Re-read the para in my post where I talk about due process. And note it is not just kids who lie to get others in trouble - I know of cases in the workplace where it has been done as well.

Many parents know how hard it is to be a teacher (we have to live with the teenagers too!), and we are largely supportive. But we also see a lot of incompetence that wouldn't be tolerated in the workplace and rules put in place by collective bargaining agreements that make it impossible discipline wayward teachers or even make needed changes.

I'm sure teachers unions have done a lot of good and in some cases were sorely needed. However, their recent history has not been one of progressive change and the cause is not helped when 'teacher-bashing' is the first response to even the mildest criticism.

Truthfully, were I in a teacher's union, I'd pay a lot of attention to the trends in private and charter schools and home-schooling - there is a strong message here. And then I'd pay close attention to some of the tutoring services that are popping up using Indian tutors via the internet - technology is going to make it a lot easier parents to vote with their pocketbooks over the next decade. Combine that with the declining student populations after this peak year, and you're going to see a lot of pressure on school budgets - and teacher's salaries - as school boards look for alternative ways to educate our kids.

[A Persona]

Actually, I think it's reasonable that they pay teachers until a case is proven against them. Honestly, my only suggestion is that they have the teachers do something useful rather than just sitting there and get the system working quicker so they don't have so many teachers in the rubber room.

A school librarian in our NYC school was put in the rubber room for an allegation, by a well-known troublemaking student, of 'inappropriate touching'. The student in question is homophobic and has admitted (to students) of doing that just so the "homosexual bastard loses his job." Students tried to speak out that it was incredibly unfair to listen to this homophobic student as opposed to a well-respected librarian, but he's been in the rubber room for half a year now.

[CT2010Dad]

It is certainly a tragedy when a respected teacher is put in the rubber room for six months. And I think all of us feel for someone unfairly accused.

But re-read xiggi's post - particulary the part about the onerous process requirements mandated by the collective bargaining agreements. This is a case of the law of unintended consequences - and it is the process that the union put in place that is preventing justice from being done.

I can assure you that were something like this to happen in my company, it would be investigated promptly and fairly, with full respect for due process.

[ejr1]

Oh, yes, those random representative samples - the only kids taking the test are the ones that were able to stay the college-prep course (ie - the cream of the crop). Others are already out of school and being apprenticed or working by the time the tests are taken. Not everyone goes to the end of high school.

[tokenadult]

Others are already out of school and being apprenticed or working by the time the tests are taken.

That is simply false. That is not an accurate description of when school-leaving occurs with reference to fourth grade or eighth grade tests.

[xiggi]

Oh, yes, those random representative samples - the only kids taking the test are the ones that were able to stay the college-prep course (ie - the cream of the crop). Others are already out of school and being apprenticed or working by the time the tests are taken. Not everyone goes to the end of high school.

If the first baseless argument did not stick, let's throw another one! After all, if other countries do better, they either must cheat on the test or measure different pools.

Would it not be easy to READ the reports? Reading the reports about the international tests might help understand that they are administered to 4th and 8th graders (TIMSS) or to 15 years old (PISA.) For your further information, many countries have mandatory education laws until 16 or 18, and the students that are in the technical AND vocational systems ARE included in PISA. In addition, our dropout rates in 9th grade are nothing to be proud of.

[twinmom]

"the cause is not helped when 'teacher-bashing' is the first response to even the mildest criticism"

^ ^ There is a history on these boards of exactly that, by certain posters who are hardly mild in their criticism of teachers and unions.

[standrews]

Here's why teachers are not fired in NYC.

http://www.decimation.com/markw/wp-c...ring_chart.pdf

[DonnaL]

It's called due process.

[CT2010Dad]

Or featherbedding...

[hikids]

The real issue here is not this particular happening but rather that it is a symptom of the faillure of government at virtually all levels across this country. Look at the furor now created over corn and ethanol. Today's paper points out that they (the gove) is now trying to change some ethanol rules so more corn with be planted as food (so that food cost don't skyrocket more). How dumb were they in the first place. You have basically all the candidates pandering to the "gas tax holiday', when people are starting to get the message that SUV's and high gas consuming cars are not the wave of the future. Car dealer in Fla not taking SUV's in trade anymore. Another, paying up to $4,000 less in trade because they won't sell. Of course, if 30 years ago the gove would have started real gas mileage requirements, people might not be in this bind an we would have 70 mile per gallon SUV's and 100 mile per gallon smaller cars. The big three told congress they could not compete, guess what, they could not with the breaks, Toyota, and Honda are on a role, and why?

[goaliedad]

It's called due process.

It's called "don't" process in this case. LOL

Do you think someone could have come up with a more byzantine process if they had tried?

I don't think that complicating a process makes it any fairer (to either side). You'd think that a school district like NYC with a large number of teachers and a predictable flow of discipline issues would come up with a streamlined process and impartial adjudication body that would be well-trained enough to not need that many layers of review and appeal.

No, there is no sense in any of this.