Merit pay for teachers- not

[brillar]

Westerndad- I talked to my teachers today and they said the opposite. I don't know, I guess it depends on the teacher/school. All I know is that here, EVERYONE wants to teach Honors/AP and for the last four years I've listened to my teachers complain about teaching the lower levels, and how nice our classes are... I don't exactly agree with that (they should at least keep quiet about it to their students), but that seems like the general consensus here.

[juillet]

These are exactly the reasons why many teachers' unions and educational organizations are against merit pay. It unfairly values some educational categories (i.e., math and science) over others (music and art). And the teachers who choose to go into one field over the other because of love and skill end up getting shafted.

Besides that, merit pay has racial and socioeconomic backlashes too. Schools in poor neighborhoods are more likely to have failing students on national exams. Merit pay will cause teachers to go flocking from the schools that really need them to suburban schools that will give them extra pay for the high-achieving students there. African American and Latino/a children also score lower on tests than white and Asian students, so the teachers who teach these disadvantaged groups will be at a disadvantage themselves.

I'm not saying that the concept of merit pay isn't a good one, but there needs to be careful consideration into how its handled.

[xiggi]

It's not an accident that NMSI is located in Dallas, Texas.

School Named Top in the Nation: Newsweek published its list of top 1,200 schools in the United Sates, and a Dallas, Texas TAG magnet gifted and talented school placed first. Congratulations to the School for the Talented and Gifted at Yvonne A. Ewell Townview Center!

Eighty-three percent of Townview's student body -- this is grades nine through 12 -- is African American or Hispanic. Thirty-six percent of the total student body took at least one AP, or advanced placement, exam. Twenty percent of the entire student body passed at least one advanced placement exam. So there is high participation rates in advanced placement. And at the Science and Engineering magnet school, for three yeas running, more African American and Hispanic students passed advanced placement calculus than any other school in the United States, public or private.

And in 2005, 35 of the African American and Hispanic freshmen and sophomore students passed AP calculus and that is more than any other school in the country.

The Science and Engineering Magnet School in Dallas has the nation's highest number of African American and Hispanic students earning grades of 3 or higher on the AP Calculus exams. At this NCLB National "Blue Ribbon School," nearly half of all students qualify for the federal meals program; over 70% are minorities

http://www.philanthropyroundtable.or...&contentid=511

[tomslawsky]

Juliet, I'm trying hard to be mature here,but COME ON! You have paper thin arguments versus merit pay. The fact is that the US keeps throwing money and money and more (tax) money at schools and the quality of the product (high school graduates) is sinking. The reason minority school districts don't do well on standardized tests is completely de-coupled from good teacher-bad teacher. It has to do with families not giving a crap about school. Period. You find me a family that values education in ANY neighborhood and I'll show you a kid who will do well in school. You don't need the best teachers to give a lecture, require homework and facilitate learning. In fact, I submit that teachers who teach at these types of schools are wasting their talent. You don't need the latest technology, brand new computers, i pods and brand new buildings to teach the fundamentals of liberal arts. Most of the parents in here (like me) I'm sure did well with text books, note books and overhead projectors. You can learn just as well from overheads as you can from powerpoint, if need be. Why in the world would you want the best teacher teaching in an area where most students just don't care? Why NOT shift them to the schools where they will have the most impact? Besides, it all depends on how you define "Best" teachers. If I were living in a state with budgetary issues and a booming population (which I am), my idea of the best teachers would be the ones that can effectively teach 25 students at once. Pay them, more, make them the model and train others in that paradigm. Trust me, most students don't need a 5:1 student to teacher ratio to learn, only the slower students do (politically incorrect, but 100% true). I'm sure most who read this are mad at me right now, but if you remove pure emotion from the situation ans look at the facts, I am right. Just because you were taught a view of social justice in school doesn't make it the most accurate view of reality.

Teachers should be evaluated on merit just like the rest of us working people...actually, they should be held to a higher standard, as they are using our tax money. Is the merit system in Washington perfect? I'm guessing not but tell me one person working in private industry who has a system that is perfect. The trick is to implement a good system and continually improve it. that concept, at it's very core is anti modern union.

[tomslawsky]

Can someone name me 5 tangible, quantifiable benefits the unions have implemented to increase the quality of education (not the quality of the teacher's lives, which is mutually exclusive from educational quality)? The union represents the best interest of the TEACHERS and consequences to the students be damned. I have a friend in NYC that (at tax payer expense) qualifies for lifetime health benefits this year because he has taught 10 years. Lifetime health......WOW! This is at the tax payers expense mind you.

[tomslawsky]

Merit pay is in no way in the best interest of the teachers. It is in the best interest of a small number of good teachers, but detrimental in the aggregate. The union would ruin the quality of education long before thy would gladly embrace this sort of system. Sad, but that's politics. What's even sadder is that most teachers are on board with union policy. Wouldn't we all love to eliminate our annual review and hide behind the curtain of "creative freedom". ok, my rant is about done now

[Hedda]

Merit pay is another band-aid on a hemorrhaging educational system. What we need - as a teacher - is a restructuring of the American school. Administrators earn twice what a teacher earns, the district office admin earns half again as much...Your tax dollars are not being spent on your children, and I for one am not getting rich in my classroom.

[xiggi]

Hedda, that is so true. Our education system should be based on two pillars: teachers and students. In the current system, the most important people are held hostage by interest groups fighting for control and financial windfalls that have little to do with education.

Students AND teachers should be able to select a system where they can blossom. Right now, in the Ubnited States, school choice DOES exist, but it is restricted to the people who can afford to send their children to schools outside the monopoly of public schools or afford to work for a smaller paycheck. To climb of this hole, we need a level playing field and a system that rewards some form of competition among various systems.

I believe that most families greatly underestimate the deep malaise that exists in the public education system, as well as the incredible difficulty of replacing the millions of teachers who will retire in the next decade. While more money for the "system" is hardly the correct answer, more money and choices for good teachers is part of the solution.

[JiffsMom]

Originally Posted by xiggi

I believe that most families greatly underestimate the deep malaise that exists in the public education system...

And I am continually shocked at how complacent most families are when it comes to their own community's public schools. It reminds me of the international comparison (TIMSS, I believe?) that found U.S. students had the highest confidence in their abilities, yet performed among the worst.

The overwhelming majority seem to think that they have 'excellent' schools, and that only other communities' schools are underperforming. Given the fact that it's usually the popular members of the community who get elected to the school board, and they too continue to believe their schools are 'excellent,' they tell community residents exactly what the residents want to hear - 'Our schools are excellent! and outstanding!' - regardless of the accuracy of that statement.

It is virtually impossible to get a school district to improve when they already believe they're exceptional and outstanding, and the community complacently eats this up as well.

/frustrated rant

[SlitheyTove]

The Atlantic Monthly's Jan/Feb issue had an article advocating national, not local control of public education. Provocative stuff, starting with the title:

First, Kill All the School Boards

[emeraldkity4]

This should be on a banner across every intersection.

And I am continually shocked at how complacent most families are when it comes to their own community's public schools. It reminds me of the international comparison (TIMSS, I believe?) that found U.S. students had the highest confidence in their abilities, yet performed among the worst.

The overwhelming majority seem to think that they have 'excellent' schools, and that only other communities' schools are underperforming. Given the fact that it's usually the popular members of the community who get elected to the school board, and they too continue to believe their schools are 'excellent,' they tell community residents exactly what the residents want to hear - 'Our schools are excellent! and outstanding!' - regardless of the accuracy of that statement.

It is virtually impossible to get a school district to improve when they already believe they're exceptional and outstanding, and the community complacently eats this up as well.

THis is a post from a very involved parent regarding a meeting at one of Seattle top high schools ( tied with my daughters- but while my daughters is "inner city" this school would have been where Bill Gates would have attended had he gone to public school)

So last night at Roosevelt we had our final Parent Education night of the year. I was organizing these nights and I thought rather than having a formal program that I would get a panel and let parents engage them in a discussion about Roosevelt in specific and high schools in SPS in general. I invited our principal, Brian Vance, the high school director, Michael Tolley, and our Board director, Harim Martin-Morris. All of them showed up, ready to go. This had been in our parent newsletter for months, in the parent e-mail bulletin for months and we put it on the website in a prominent place for the last 2 weeks. (I also sent an e-mail two weeks ago to the PTAs at Eckstein and Hamilton, given that we get a lot of freshman from those two schools.)

We had about 12 parents show up.

Twelve parents is more than the school ( where I had been on the PTA board but left after years of the same people being expected to do everything) that advertises itself as being a " family" and prides itself on community, but parental involvement is so poor, that at the most recent parent group meeting, where the board pleaded with parents to attend & for teachers to ask parents to come, in order to discuss whether they even had enough parental support to maintain the parent group- but only three parents who were not on the executive board came.

I have found that even at inner city schools, when parents participate in school events, kids do better- but I don't know what else that some schools can do to get them there.
WHen I was at our previous school, we ( the parent group) supplied dinner, child care and since it was an all city school, would hold meetings in areas that were more accessible. But still, it was the same parents-(who eventually went on to other schools,as did we),that ran the fundraisers, drove on field trips and bought supplies for classrooms.
and BTW, not a high income school or board.

[mathmom]

Or teacher C who is entertaining, but gets off track very easily. The class gets way behind on the AP curriculum, but they add lots of weekend study sections to catch up. The kids do well on the tests, why? Because they've been self-selected and they all study a huge amount outside class to cover all the material that has been missed. This is my son's current experience.

That said, even though I agree with a lot of Alfie Kohn's research, some sort of merit pay makes more sense in my mind than just getting raises for doing your time. The real problem is finding a fair way to measure merit.

[brillar]

(And to note something, just by mentioning Alfie Kohn doesn't mean I agree with everything he says just because it's in a book... I believe in the things that I've experienced/seen as well...)

Good teachers wasting their talent in bad neighborhoods? If we sent all the good teachers to schools where they could "actually make an impact," we'd have a serious problem. You can't just give up on a third grader because their parent is working several jobs, or maybe just doesn't care about education. Kids whose parents don't care can still become great students and amazing citizens- unfortunately, sometimes you have to work around the parents instead of punishing the kids for their parents priorities.

--

I think the education system in Finland is pretty interesting (NOTE: UNICEF ranked them as third). Teachers are required to have master's degrees, students are given the same schooling for the first nine years (not separated by abilities), there are no private schools, and no standardized tests other than their final exams and international testing. Education is also free. The author of the article seemed to think this would not translate well to America- maybe our obsession with testing/competition and rankings is actually hurting our education system. I also sort of have my doubts... Waaaay too socialist for the majority of America, but it's working for them! I don't know, parts could definitely be borrowed.

(Note: Erm, I am also not completely bashing standardized testing and No Child Left Behind and all that in the note about less standardized testing- NCLB does some good things, but it also has its problems.)

Article: In Finland's Footsteps

(Finland ranked third: CNN.com - UNICEF ranks countries on academics - Nov. 26, 2002 )

[raffles88]

Ask yourself, who are the unions really benefiting? What would happen if teachers received merit pay?

[pugfug90]

yeah!
that'll learn those stupid teachers and their stupid unions