Freshman year didn't go well!

[MidwestMom2Kids_]

Please don't be to stressed about this.

My friend's son just finished his freshman year in engineering at Georgia Tech in engineering and his grades, let's just say they were not what they were in high school. Georgia Tech is a hard school. Engineering is a hard major and he has learned that he is not destined to be an engineering major.

I do think that frats too many hours away from studying. If you are obligated to do something at your frat on a certain evening, saying you "have a big test the next morning and you need to study" is not acceptable to your frat brothers. If he were my kid, I would tell him that I would rather he keep his distance from the frat until he has had a successful term (passed all classes with a C or better). They are his friends, so you probably wouldn't really keep him "away" form them, but I certainly wouldn't pay any fraternity fees.

[ucsd_ucla_dad]

He and you need to get to the bottom of why his grades are low. He likely knows why and needs to admit it to you and needs to work up a plan to resolve it. He might not want to admit what's wrong but he needs to - especially if he's asking you to support him financially.

I wouldn't focus on difficulty of the courses at first since you stated he did well in HS. I'd focus on -

- Partying/drinking. This is especially true if he's involved in any way with frats. Is he out drinking and staying up all hours and thereby not studying and sleeping in instead of going to class?

- Not studying. Even if not partying/drinking, is he consuming his time elsewhere, such as gaming, hanging out talking, watching sports, etc., rather than studying?

- Not attending class. Even if not partying/drinking, is he sleeping in and skipping class? Lots of students do this but it doesn't work well for engineering/science/math students in particular.

- Missed mid-terms. Did he miss some mid-terms or other major tests?

Beyond the above, yes, some of these classes are likely difficult and there might be a curve to deal with but it sounds like there might well be something else going on. You need to figure out what it is and you have a right to know if you're paying for his education. This could be a wake-up for him though and he could well improve from this point forward. He should also switch out of CS (if that's what his major is) if he's not interested in it and is finding the material too difficult.

[QuantMech]

Both of the courses that gave your son difficulty require applying principles that one knows, in order to solve problems of a type that one has never seen prior to the exams. Some high schools provide a much better background in work of this type than others.

What I would recommend is that your son should obtain the high-school physics book written by the Physical Sciences Study Committee, a group of faculty headed by Jerrold Zacharias of MIT (quite a long time ago, but there have been multiple revised editions, and you can purchase it from Amazon, or possibly obtain it from a library near you). If he works through the entire book this summer, about a chapter per week, he will have an excellent understanding of how to convert basic principles into equations for particular situations. The PSSC Physics book includes many problems that do not have corresponding worked examples--that is one of its principal virtues, in preparation for university physics. Also, your son should find someone who actually understands physics to help him over any rough spots.

It's perfectly possible to bounce back, but it may require taking a quite different approach than your son has been accustomed to take, with his high-school courses.

Also, working on the physics will have excellent carry-over for calculus, because it helps to develop the same thinking style--even though PSSC physics is not calculus-based.

One other thought: Was the physics course electricity and magnetism? If so, it might require multi-variable calculus to really understand; then the advice above is still valid, but your son should seek advice about how to time the re-takes (if there's any option).

[2boysima]

If on probation, he may be required to visit this office:

Georgia Institute of Technology :: Academic Support

If not, maybe you can try to make attending at least X number of the Academic Success workshops a requirement of continuing to support his academic career at GT.

Less than full membership in the Frat may also help....although may make your son very unhappy....

[CountingDown]

Georgia Tech is also known for its sink-or-swim mentality. S may in fact be busting his tail and still not doing well. I have a friend who transferred into GT and lasted a quarter. Had always been an excellent student. Got a D in physics (his intended major) and decided to cut his losses. Graduated magna cum laude elsewhere, went to grad school.

A recommendation from other folks I know who survived GT: don't take a class that has a co-requisite that you're taking at the same time. All too often (and not just at GT), the calc you need to know to solve that physics pset will be taught two weeks after the pset is due.

Disclosure: My B flunked out after five quarters. My SIL's S graduated summa with a 3.98. The folks I know who did well had one EC (a GF, band, frat) and did very little else besides study.

[QuantMech]

I second CountingDown's advice about the math co-requisite. If at all possible, your son should take any math co-requisite before the physics, and not simultaneously. (That was what I had in mind, when I mentioned seeking advice about the timing of the repeats.)

[notre dame AL]

I'll add my 2 cents--Engineering is HARD! And, while I am not making excuses for your son, Engineering is HARD!!! Currently our son is a Soph engineering student at ND and while it is not GA Tech, I can tell you that it is my impression be it GA Tech or any other engineering school, the first year is basically a weed-out year. If he is serious about engineering, he will regroup and refocus and forge ahead. He has to examine where he stands and what can be done to improve. From our experience, son's Intro to Eng class in the fall sem of his freshman year started out with 400+ students (each in different sections, of course). Three weeks into the course many had dropped out or were going to drop out of engineering. By second semester, the intro to eng class was down to about 150+. So that by the end of his freshman year, there were maybe 125 or so left in the freshman engineering class (give or take). Yes, the Calc is extremely difficult (again weed out courses as most are taught from engineering perspective as is physics and chem). As another poster mentioned, once he begins to start taking classes in his true major(aero, civil, mech, etc), I think it will make a huge difference. Engineering is such a rigid, structured program with not much wiggle room in terms of courseload and variety of classes (unlike liberal arts). In fact, most of son's classes have all began at either 8:30 or 9:30 am vs his liberal arts major friends having classes that can be scheduled at 11 am. His lab classes have been killers as well. Try to have him truly examine whether he wants to continue in engineering. And, as previous posters have also mentioned, attend ALL study sessions, study with a group, and most importantly meet with professors when those low test grades come in. It does make a difference. Unfortunately, engineers don't have much of a party life on a college campus and because of their workload/study hours, most of their friends tend to be engineers, which I suppose, offers some sort of support system. Hang in there and listen to your student-you both can hopefully come to some good solutions/conclusions about engineering!

[mini]

I have told him I would like a plan of action on what he is going to do.

-- I think it would be great for HIM to come up with a plan of action, with his academic advisor. I don't see why YOU should have a plan of action.

It is obvious he doen't know how to study for college (or at least Georgia Tech) finals.

-- Perhaps. But I don't see why it is obvious.


Should I insist on seeing all grades during the semester?

-- Did you earn them? They are HIS grades, not yours.

The course requirements?

-- I assume he knows what they are, and can discuss them with his teachers and academic advisor.

Or do I just set expectations

- Whose expectations?

and inform him of the consequences of not following them (coming home and attending a less prestigious/hard school).

-- He probably already knows that. And, if he can't work out, that's not a bad consequence, but a good one. It is more likely, however, that if there is a significant difficulty, it is his choice of major rather than the school. But it can't hurt to inform him that he does have other options that might work better for him.

I am sure he is embarrased. He can't fully join his frat now (wonder if the frat was part of the problem).

-- You could ask him, if you can do it in a non-judgmental way.

His girlfriend gets great grades and this lack of success will not endure him to her parents either.

-- It took me a year to settle into my #1 LAC, and I think my highest grade was a B-minus. I lacked the polish, and some of the academic skills, of my peers. By the end of junior year, I was Phi Beta Kappa.

[curiouser]

S had a difficult few semesters and what baffled us is why he did not drop a class BEFORE it deteriorated into an F or D. He has finally understands more about managing your gpa and studies better. But it took until his 2nd semester as a junior.

We too struggled with what approach to take as parents. Ultimately, we told him that if he lost his financial aid/scholarship (which has a minimum gpa that isn't all that high), we could not afford to make up the difference. I agree that it is way too difficult to try and manage his grades from a distance. And frankly, we didn't feel we could set a specific goal (ie you MUST have a 3.0), especially when some classes/and or profs are WAY harder than others. We basically had to sit tight and wait until the next semester grades were posted. He has never been very good about sharing information, particularly when the news isn't positive. He still has his financial aid/scholarship---but barely. Bottom line though is that we made clear what the goal was: lose your money and you come home. It was up to him to figure out how to make that happen.

Several others have posted various reasons for what may have gone wrong.
I'm local to the GA Tech area and I can confirm the stories you are hearing about calculus and the number of students who get F's and D's. Many bright kids we know had this happen at Tech. Some dropped/changed majors, some left the school, but most figured out a way to survive and ultimately thrive. Tech is tough.

That said, with my S (who doesn't go to Tech), the problems were similar to those mentioned already, lack of organizational skills, not taking class attendance seriously enough (he NEVER misses class now), and a seeming inability to assess where he stood in a class gradewise until it was too late.
Unwilling to join study groups, etc, etc.

He's getting better at it, ie, understanding the importance of dropping the terrible class...however, it's just in time for his senior year and probably will impact his ability to attain admittance to grad school.

The lessons learned will be valuable for maturing and succeeding. And hopefully, if your S cares about staying at Tech, he will find a way to do what he needs. Please keep us posted and best of luck to you.

[notre dame AL]

About the grades--they are HIS grades, but in our house, paying the FULL tuition price, we as parents also see the grades. Our student is on what I would call a "Parent Scholarship"! And while we have not set minimum gpa for maintaining that merit scholarship from his parents, we do expect to see his grades. We have kept very open lines of communication with respect to grades; we celebrate the tiniest successes and encourage the failures. When he has his own job and is paying his own way, then it does not become our business. But, we hope we can still have the celebrations, etc. with good job performance.

[doubleplay]

Fraternities take up a LOT of time. A fraternity is the equivalent of another three hour course. And I'm not talking about the parties, I'm talking about the meetings, the community service, the intramurals, the weekend retreats, the weekend formals, the weekend leadership summits, responsibilities of holding office...

How many classes did he take per semester? If someone is considering a fraternity, I would take the "three hour" thing into account when preparing a schedule.

And don't get me started on the pledgeship semester of fraternity life. Whatever they say, it's a lot more time-involvement than they tell you. Fraternities do hold nightly mandatory study halls for pledges, but that is offset by all the other responsibilities involved. Pledges are expected to be at the house every night, at dinner every night, meeting attendance, learn all the history, lore, songs, interview all the upperclassmen, etc. Whereas a brother can get away with skipping the weekend Habitat project, the house cleanup, or doing DD, the pledge cannot. Lots of kids go off to school, don't realize how much of a time commitment fraternity life is going to be, and take a full courseload (15-18 hours), which is a big mistake during pledge semester. A disaster in the making. Estimate fraternity life as an additional class every semester, if the brother is heavily involved (participating in all activities, holding office, etc.)

[droppinby]

Hi there...I've been in your son's shoes. One of the worst feelings in the world. I should preface this by saying that I am a regular here on CC, posting under a different name b/c I don't want my usual name associated with this post.

I was a A/B student in high school. Great grades, balanced extra curriculars--4 sports, band, FFA, student council, you name it and I probably did it. Go to a 4-year public of similar standing to GaTech.

Freshman year was okay. Low B/High C, with a D in one class. Did alright with time management, but something wasn't clicking. This past fall, sophomore year, I bottomed out. A D-, D, 2 C-'s, and a dropped class. I couldn't balance my job and school anymore, and I had absolutely no interest in my classes, but I didn't want to tell anyone. I was put on Academic Warning, one step above Academic Probation. (AT my school, AW is receiving a GPA between 1.0 and 1.99. Probation is either two consecutive semesters of AW or one semester of a 0.99 or lower GPA.)

My dad was furious. We had a "talk" for over an hour. More him yelling and me sitting there, already feeling bad w/o his talking. Any student on AW here has to meet with their advisor, so I did that and we made some study plans, got me in touch with a campus tutor, and went over my grades and how to get better overall this spring. I did eventually change majors, and am looking forward to fall when I'll be in classes that I'm actually interested in. Interest in a class helps me with attendance--this was a problem. I'm on my 3rd major, btw. I came out of this semester with C-, B-, 2 B's, and a B+.

It sucks not knowing what's going wrong. Talking with an academic advisor definitely helps though. Yelling, punishing, etc., will only make your kid feel worse than I imagine he already is.

One thing that has definitely helped is putting everything in a planner. It sounds borderline insane, but I write down every assignment, when I have to be at work (even though it's the same shift every week), when an outside event is going on, and I try to stick to the calendar. I remade my graduation plan, and lightened up my regular-year loads to 12-14 credits/semester. 12 if minimum full time here. I'll take 2-3 classes every summer, and hopefully it works out for the best.

Being at the bottom of the pile when you used to be at the top is a bad feeling. Hopefully your son can get through this and start off strong sophomore year.

[Neonzeus]

One of my kids finished his first semester with very, very disappointing grades. I saw pictures on his Facebook that indicated he was partying. He had tried to pursue a science major even though math/science was never his strength. We spent an unhappy Christmas break discussing what had gone wrong. The kid refused to admit that partying was part of the problem, and blamed the science/math classes.

I told the kid that staying at his school was NOT an option if he lost his scholarship due to poor grades, but he had choices. He could transfer to an easier school but transferring would be more possible if grades were better. With rock bottom grades, his transferring options were limited. Another option would be to take some classes at Community College, to bring up his GPA and show that he was capable of doing college work.

Kid went back to school determined to get his act together. Changing majors made a huge difference, since the classes in the new major were much more appealing and interesting to him. The fear of being forced to leave a school (and telling his friends what happened) was big motivation. Semester #2 was much, much better - enough so that the final GPA for the year preserved his scholarship by a whisker. While studying a lot harder, he did some transfer applications.

With his improved GPA, this kid did elect to transfer to a school that had a stronger department in the new major. He transferred with his head high, knowing he could have stayed in School #1. The transfer was his choice, not a forced option because he had lost his scholarship. On the positive side, he left his GPA and those awful first semester grades at School #1 behind, and was able to start a new GPA at School #2.

The hardest part of that year was admitting what went wrong. Was it partying, tough classes in an area where he didn't "click," the frat, the GF, sleeping through classes, skipping classes, not doing the reading, not understanding the material, etc.? Sometimes brilliant kids just don't have good study habits, since they've been able to get good grades in high school just by reading the material on the bus on the way to school. Another factor may be the preparation for college the kid got in high school. Some high schools just don't give students the preparation that other schools do. One of my kids was telling me that it's amazing to him that many students in his Calculus class were struggling with a particular problem but he had done this problem in 8th grade in our school district. Even in his honors dorm, with really smart kids with good SATS, much of the material was new to them. When grading on a curve, it doesn't take too many math geniuses or kids who had that material in a high school class to skew the curve and hurt the students who come in a little less prepared.

I've been in your shoes, and it's heartbreaking. However, I can tell you that there absolutely can be a happy ending. My kid with the awful first semester has made dean's list ever since he figured out the problem(s) and changed his major to something that he actually enjoys. He's now looking at professional schools. I never would have believed that he could turn things around so well.

[3xcharmed]

lighten the course load too, usually probation has some restrictions, but maybe he can take 12 credits vs 15-18. Are you absolutely sure gatech won't accept credits from another comp college or university for calc? How about if he took one of his electives at a local college or university over the summer? If he does well and the credits transfer, the fall wouldn't be so stressfull. Also, be sure that you (mom & dad) understand all his options. For example, can he take a semester off and take classes at another university in the fall and return to gatech for the spring? The whole thing is so stressfull, he may not be thinking clearly himself, or sharing all his options with you (and coming off a difficult year, the last thing he might want to do is take summer classes). It is not unusual for freshman to get in trouble and colleges do want to keep their students (that's why many tech schools like MIT use the pass/no fail system freshman year), but once on probation you only have one semester to get off it. Next year could be much worse if he is not successful and has to leave in the middle of the year.

[Treetopleaf]

whynotniwot, good luck to you and your kid. I'd like to second QuantMech's suggestion of self-study using the PSSC (Physical Sciences Study Committee) Physics book. I found one in the library, looked it over and ordered a used copy yesterday and will be going over it w/D this summer. Doing so will give the kids some confidence going into the fall.