Where is the proof that Harvard rejects so many percent of perfect scorers?

[epiphany]

That post of mine that you just quoted was inclusive, marite, not exclusive. I said that H admits all types, styles, personalities. Earlier in this thread I noted why mammall's D got consideration & admission at several Elites, including H. Those stated reasons included "academic achievements beyond GPA [and] board scores."

[marite]

Those stated reasons included "academic achievements beyond GPA [and] board scores.

That's precisely the point I want to make. SAT scores, even perfect ones, gauge ability at the 11th grade level. Plenty of applicants can show achievement well beyond that level. There is no evidence that HYPS value non-academic qualities over academic ones. They do value non-academic qualities, but not at the expense of academic ones.

[QuantMech]

^^amazon and tokenadult,

I can say with a good deal of confidence that 2400 scorers are not a breed apart from those with 23xx up to 2390. It is very likely true that among the 2400 scorers, there are some who are 6 standard deviations above the mean in each category (CR/M/W), and not merely 3 standard deviations above. And those few are indeed considerably different from someone who is actually 2.9 standard deviations above the mean in each area. But the SAT is not sufficiently sensitive at the high end to differentiate accurately. If amazon's hypothesis were true, then someone who scored 800 M should also reliably outscore someone with a 790 M on the AMC 12, AIME, and other math tests. But I know counterexamples. And tokenadult's comment is--needless to say--exactly right about the theory of measurement.

To cite a really extreme case, there have been errors in the SAT M problems, on rare occasions. I recall one about 9 years ago. A student who takes the SAT when the question and answer service is available can catch this and challenge the question, but that service is not available for all test dates.

[epiphany]

I agree with your post 152, marite, and I think my previous posts are harmonious with that, also. (I've said the same in the past about other Elites as well: not "at the expense of" academic traits. I also think this is a common misconception -- i.e., substitution of one for another.)

[mathmom]

My son, who is MUCH better at math than verbal things nevertheless twice missed getting an 800 on the math SAT for making very silly mistakes. From middle school on he was the highest scorer on whichever AMC exam he took that year, beating out kids two grades above him many years.

Harvard Magazine ran an article about admissions several years ago. They said there are a small percentage that get accepted because they are academic superstars and will clearly be leaders in academia, there is a small percentage that get admitted because of their ECs (think YoYo Ma caliber musicians), but for the vast majority it's a combination of good enough grades and test scores combined with ECs. How much each is weighted is probably very variable and depends on the applicant.

[mammall]

^ I think Epiphany's post describing the "a-b-c" of what H looks for described my D1 to an uncanny degree. Also, her earlier post on genuine academic interest vs. grade grubbing was very insightful.

There are obviously different avenues of entry to H and its peers. Perfect scores is not one of them. They can burnish an already solid application but they cannot serve as the heart of a successful application to these schools. Also, I think the bar keeps rising as to what constitutes a perfect score application. Lately, it's the 2400 + 36 + multiple 800s on subject tests. I think there might well be a threshold where the perfect scores reach a critical mass for an applicant and constitute a true hook. That would be truly impossible to document.

Meanwhile, I find myself envying my mom friends with kids staying in-state and attending good old public U. Continuity of community. Geographical proximity.

Why on earth do we put ourselves through this????

Someone remind me why it's all worth it.

[Bay]

for the vast majority it's a combination of good enough grades and test scores combined with ECs.

^Agree. In my observation, most highly intelligent students excel in more than just academics. They are usually quite accomplished in non-academic pursuits as well (often including athletics). A perfect-scorer who brings nothing else to the admissions table would be unusual and probably not qualified for Harvard, as other high-scorers in the pool would likely contribute more to the campus.

[wjb]

Also, I think the bar keeps rising as to what constitutes a perfect score application. Lately, it's the 2400 + 36 + multiple 800s on subject tests.

Is there evidence of this? I believe there are very, very few students who score both a 2400 and a 36. Tokenadult, are you out there? The vast majority of students who score perfectly on either test probably don't bother to take the other. (There may be two exceptions: homeschooled students who need to flesh out their credentials and ACT 36 scorers who need to take the SAT for NMF verification.) I don't believe colleges are playing games when they say they want EITHER the ACT OR the SAT I. A perfect score on either test (assuming it's coupled with perfect SAT II scores) certainly creates a "perfect score application."

[twinmom]

Mathmom's got it right.

My daughter and I met with her admission officer during her pre-frosh weekend. I asked him why she got in. He said, "Why, she's involved in so many great things. And her academics are terrific. And, of course, there was her interview." We looked at one another when he mentioned the interview, because she thought it had not gone well. He caught our looks and asked her if she had thought it had gone badly. When she said yes, he then chuckled, commenting that students often perceive interviews as such and are generally wrong.
Anyhow, my point is that my daughter had no scores of 800, was not an athlete, musician, legacy, URM, geographically desirable, or a world champion in anything. Her summers were run-of-the-mill ordinary but fun. Yet she was admitted SCEA. She was passionate about her academics and all that she participated in while in high school. I believe that showed through in her application, interview, essays, and recommendations.

[tokenadult]

I believe there are very, very few students who score both a 2400 and a 36. Tokenadult, are you out there?

Few indeed, because perfect scorers on the SAT number only in the hundreds

http://www.collegeboard.com/prod_dow...tile_ranks.pdf

and perfect scorers on the ACT number only in the hundreds

http://www.act.org/news/data/07/pdf/National2007.pdf

(table 2.1) and not all students who take one test take the other. That said, a few years ago three girls in one high school in Minnesota got scores of 36 on the ACT and scores of 1600 on the former two-section SAT, so it is possible to find clusters of students who ace both tests. (As far as I know, none of those three girls applied to Harvard, although there are certainly girls from that high school who have been admitted to Harvard in the last several years.)