Does this apply to the obsession that so many CC'ers seem to have?

[galoisien]

It's just that so many students who go to "elite" schools seem to end up in 'the machine,' even if it's a very lucrative position in the machine, if you know what I mean. That's not to say that "lower-tier" schools (these terms I always use with heavy quote-marks) don't have students also entering the machine, but a realisation that I developed this year is that no, getting into that school isn't that magic ticket, and that there seems to be many elements of "slavery to the system," conformity and determinism despite the students' high intelligence.

I guess it's the gnawing idea that I come across many students who seem to be 'manufactured' for their lives -- private prep schools and Ivy Leagues being points along the assembly line chain, with parents sometimes being the factory workers. My valedictorian, who's going into biochemical engineering, sees no value in fields like linguistics (which I plan to connect plentily to calculus, biological evolution and physics) or women's studies, with all the entailing discussions of morality and right, almost like the misinformed relative at the dinner table who disapproves of your field of study. This I would tolerate as a personality trait if not for the fact that she doesn't appear to have any fascination for the implications of the field she's going into and she is not the type to wonder about concepts not covered by the course that happen to covered in the next page across from the assigned reading. This is just my gripe -- she was after all, admitted to a rather good school. I do hope I'm wrong and that one day she might discover this post and correct me, but it's just that there's a certain dullness to the whole thing. We do have quite a cordial relationship face-to-face, but if you want a heart-to-heart talk about calculus and science -- she isn't the type to talk to.

I guess my impression of "top students" who attend elite schools are that of the type who transcend their conditions and "break out" of the moulds set for them.

It is a sort of philosophical problem -- a while ago you may have noticed my thread in the admissions forum about "privilege". I was trying to quantify my uneasiness I guess, and now I realise my real target wasn't so much more privilege as the idea of "educational determinism" (you went there because your environment all your life has told you to go there). Most of us after all, find a certain uneasiness with Exeter and Andover sending 40-50 grads to Harvard each year in a systemic "mass production" kind of way. It's not that they should be faulted for a nurtuing environment and for being brilliant, but shouldn't the cream of the crop transcend their conditions -- transcend 'the machine' (a very vaguely-defined idea at the moment)?

[toneranger]

sferrer;
Just to circle back...Geico does commercials with caveman...I thought some of your references to state school grads fit that image. As for the swaying ladies...no comment.
IMO, it's wrong to make assumptions about people based on their style of dress or outward appearance. How can you assume a group of people are intellectually or emotionally superior based on such surface characteristics? That's a very shallow way of thinking. Elitism is not very attractive...
Your posts are filled with contradictions...you claim that NW students like yourself are are more sensitive and compassionate folks, yet you lash out at and insult state grads as inferior beings.
I have worked with folks who graduated from all kinds of schools and who come from all types of socioeconomic backgrounds. PHDs and high school drop outs. Yes, behaviors and dress can be different, but it's important to reach deeper. Intelligence and compassion can be found in many people, and doesn't always correlate to educational accomplishment and pedigree. Open your mind up on this one...

[sanjenferrer]

-No, I don't think that state school grads are cavemen-like. In fact, I think one could look like a caveman and still be intellectually and socially conscious. You just need poor hygiene and lots of body hair.
-With some exceptions, I don't make assumptions based on style of dress but rather demeanor as possibly accentuated by style of dress. I already explained how. One of the exceptions is being aware of what Abercrombie and Fitch stands for and still choosing to support it.
-I wasn't disparaging state school students in general. I was making a very specific comparison, and the people happened to come from a state school. I'm well-aware of the fact that intellectually and socially conscious people exist at non-elite schools, including non-elite state schools; however, they are less exposed to the said norms I talked about, because the environment is not as conducive to the development of these norms.
-I do look deeper. Like I said, I've gotten to know people closely from spending 1 1/2 years at a non-elite school. My analyses are based on patterns I've observed time and again.
-Notice I did not mention intelligence anywhere in my posts? I think that's a conclusion you came up with on your own. Intellectual consciousness and intelligence are not the same. I value the former much more.

[DocT]

Based on my D's experience at an "elite" university and my experience as an adjunct faculty member at a LAC, I'd say that students at these schools aren't that different and pretty much have the same goals - make a lot of money. Unfortunately in our society, money defines a lot including occupational prestige, a bit different than in other societies where a degree such as a Ph.D. is highly valued.

[rty456]

Sanjen, others
I have enjoyed your posts. It looks like you have some thoughtful things to say, and on the original issue I think you have a lot of good points.... But surely for just a moment (without beign judgemental) you can see the internal inconsistency of your --those of us at elites schools have a better (or to use another word-elite) view of the world. I think you may in fact, have a very good point.... but give just a bit of thought to at least HOW you are making your argument.

TO Galoisein... I understand your factory analogy, and concern about your valedictorian ... but one of the great things about america is that we are each free to decide our version of success. With some maturity, you will hopefully see that what this individual thinks about your pursuits and interests doesnt invalidate your views and your pursuits ....

[wis75]

Interesting concepts of what is elite. I'm an intellectual elitist- mere bachelor's degrees are pedestrian, regardless of which institutioin they come from. I was surprised that the majority of college students at the elite colleges only get that far academically. It was a wake up call to realize that most of the students at the top schools are not as intellectual as the top students at most schools. And, talking with a mother years ago, she "only" had a masters in math, but in talking with an old professor of hers she realized that to go back at her age would be hard, research is easier when you are young, and since she would be getting the degree to satisfy herself she decided the other sacrifices (she was single parenting) weren't worth it. All of the people in the business world fall beneath my radar, no matter how financially or otherwise successful they are in their field. These statements are an example of a different view of what is/isn't elite.

[Booklady]

All of the people in the business world fall beneath my radar,

Even if they're intellectuals?

[MidwestMom2Kids_]

Originally Posted by sanjenferrer

For example, when a non-Northwestern student walks around campus, they look up no matter what (because they buy into this false notion of confidence that compels them to do that). A Northwestern student, on the other hand, would look towards the ground even when they're not intimidated, a deliberate choice not to have a power struggle with the person they're crossing paths with.

Hmmmm....

1832. The teeming, squalid streets of Paris. Beggars, urchins, prostitutes, students, etc.

BEGGARS
"Look down and see the beggars at your feet
Look down and show some mercy if you can
Look down and see the sweepings of the street
Look down, look down,
Upon your fellow man!"

GAVROCHE
"Ow do you do? My name's Gavroche.
These are my people. Here's my patch.
Not much to look at, nothing posh
Nothing that you'd call up to scratch.
This is my school, my high society
Here in the slums of Saint Michele"

[galoisien]

^^ Love the musical.

[wis75]

Just can't get excited about business success. If you mean intellectual by virtue of nonbusiness interests, or the theories (economics...) that's different. BTW, most physicians are also not intellectuals, sigh.

[galoisien]

I think I know what you may mean, wis.

I used to have a disdain for businessmen, but now I have an admiration for those who pursue or create economic niches rather than "get manufactured" for them.

[toneranger]

So, wis, what percentage of folks meet the definition of intellectual? No docs, no business types, forget poor working slobs. OK to some brilliant professors, students, artists, writers, researchers. Maybe 1 or 2%?
From my lowly perspective, I have to say that at least some of the intellectuals I have met are snobs. Not the compassionate enlightened beings that were referenced in some previous posts. It seems lots of these folks just can't shake that feeling of superiority. But I do know a few that I just love. One of them used to head the English department at a local U. Has a library of over 25,000 books in his home. Fascinating soul with rich ideas that he'd be happy to share with anyone who would listen. But he also bets on horses. And is a football fan (huh?). And is the nicest most generous man you''ll ever meet. Pretty special.