Middle Class Injustice Fordham Admissions and Financial Aid

[nysmile]

pafather, finally someone else who understands the problems of the self employed! We pay for our own health insurance (not our employer). We own a business--no vacation time, no vacation pay, no sick day pay, no pension (other than a savings account). Any responsible business owner understands the ups and downs of their salary so a small "cushion" of money always needs to be available should the business have a bad few months. This cushion is non-negotiable. It's not something that can't be used for tuition. It needs to be available to cover living/business expenses if the business drops off for a short time. Unfortunately, college financial forms don't take this into consideration. Any savings is counted as usable money for tuition.

Just venting. Life is good here and kids are off to affordable colleges. They'll get a good education but it sure would have been nice to let them attend one of the top tiered colleges that accepted them.

[Atlmom]

There are plenty of people who can't afford college period and have no possibility of going. I feel for the 51% of low wage earners who will not have the opportunities for higher education.

There are fantastic opportunities available for those who care to look....Fortune and Kiplinger rates schools that are best deals for the quality of education/cost affordability/aid. Parents should look there first realizing that you don't have to have a Private education to get a very good quality education. If that is your mindset then You get no sympathy from me.

Parents need to live within their means and teach their children the same so they don't continue this debt riddled nation full of foreclosures and bankruptcies. Choose like the above post says.....debt free lives over prestige. Examine your ability to pay and choose the best education for that....dont' take on hundreds of thousands of dollars so you can say your child got a ivey educaiton when there are public iveys out there that are equal in education and much more affordable.

[nysmile]

Atlmom,
That's exactly what we did. We explained to the kids our reasons for choosing a debt free education over prestige. They understood. We emphasized to them that it is the hard work they put into their education and their drive and ambitions that will take them where they want to go rather than the name of the school.

[zoosermom]

To top it off, the same parents typically haven't gone beyond high school, so can't offer much help as students apply to college and later look for internships and professional jobs.

Not everyone in that situation is poor. We have a lot of income, but don't have the education or experience to be of real help to our kids in this regard and some serious mistakes have been made as a result. First generation is first generation, regardless of income.

[Northstarmom]

"Not everyone in that situation is poor. We have a lot of income, but don't have the education or experience to be of real help to our kids in this regard and some serious mistakes have been made as a result. First generation is first generation, regardless of income."

You are right that first generation college students have challenges that students whose parents went to college don't have to face.

At the same time, a first generation college student who comes from a middle or upper class background in terms of the parents' income is in a much better position than is a first generation low income college student.

The more affluent student is more likely to have gone to decent schools, for instance, with teachers certified in the area that they are teaching, and guidance counselors who have the time to offer help to students who wish to go to college.

The more affluent student also is likely to be able to rely on their parents for things such as a computer, tutoring, transportation to ECs and college visits as well as money for other things that could help the student.

The more affluent student also is likely to have some basic things that most people on CC take for granted. This includes not having to move a couple of times each school year because their family can't pay their rent.

[K9Leader]

To the OP, FYI Fordham doesn't provide decent FA to lower-middle class families, either. This was our experience two years ago when our D was accepted. She was offered a $10K scholarship (not need-based) and a subsidized Stafford loan. That was it, with an EFC of $5,000. It was insulting to say the least and she did not attend.

Danhmom:

(Cue violin music.) It's not personal. It's business.

I don't know much about Fordham, except that it is expensive and, as someone else noted, it does not meet 100% of aid. You and your D weren't singled out to be insulted, your D just didn't fit whatever criteria Fordham has determined it can/should/must/will use in giving out big merit aid. They know that they will probably lose kids like your D but their acceptance of her did give her one more option in making her choice. Just as students take a shot by applying to an expensive school and hope they will get enough aid (either merit or need-based) to make it doable, Fordham took a similar shot and accepted your D hoping you and she might be able to work out the financing. It's not personal, it's business.

Hope she's happy wherever she did choose.

[MLEVINE07]

Many schools use a system in which they give the students as much aid as it would take to get them to come. Thus, applicants that got in but may be in the bottom quarter won't get as much aid as students in the top quarter.

[calmom]

I realize Fordham is trying to be a hot school, and attract the 1400 SATs, but the kids in the to 10 and nearly 1300 are not the focus, at least with financial support-

I am sorry that you were disappointed with the financial aid, but Fordham presented a reasonable, though not great, package to my daughter a couple of years ago, and my d. has no where near 1400 on SATs. (More like 1200 / 28 ACT).

Keep in mind that each case is handled individually. Fordham does not guarantee to meet full need, but it is a great option for many. However, I told my daughter at the outset what my financial limits were and she knew that her decisions would have been governed by the awards. Don't blame the college for not being all things to all people -- obviously some will come out better in the hunt for financial aid.

It's not that I don't sympathize -- I just don't think its fair to knock Fordham which is an excellent college but doesn't have the endowment to fully subsidize all of its students.

[blossom]

I'm still waiting to be persuaded of the injustice of it all. The reality of it all- that I understand. People who own their own businesses make strategic decisions all the time- to liquidate and take a corporate job for a steady income stream, to sell to a competitor and grin and bear working for someone else in exchange for long range financial security, to moonlight or take on debt to expand-- whatever the situation. This is an injustice-- that somehow you need to be a responsible parent in telling your kid that due to your self-employment status you don't have the ready cash to pay for their first choice college? Is it an injustice that you can't afford to live in Great Neck or Winnetka or Belmont??? Is it an injustice that I drive a beat up Honda instead of the BMW I want?

No- not an injustice, just the way the world works. I went back to work when my baby was 5 weeks old because I didn't have maternity leave-- this was not injustice, this was a decision I made. We couldn't afford to live on one income- also not an injustice, just reality. The flip side is that 25 years later, I have more options than many of my friends who are now going back into the work world and discovering that their "market value" has declined significantly despite all the volunteer work and car pooling and community service. Is it an injustice that someone who made 100K a year in publishing but took a 15 year maternity leave is now looking at almost minimum wage jobs with no benefits for "new media" companies? No- not an injustice, just reality even though she tries, almost daily, to turn it into a crusade.

I think I am better off than a single parent living in a housing project. I also think my friend- who had the luxury to forgo her income while she was raising her kids is better off than that single parent. We all make lifestyle choices which end up being financial choices by default.

Just curious where your kids are going to college??? And did you appeal your FA award from Fordham???

[garland]

Count me as a middle class doesn't qualify for need-based aid who agrees with you. My kids and family have advantages that low income students do not. Sure, some low income students can qualify for fabulous financial aid. However, such aid is only at the country's top universities -- places that next to no one (and even fewer low income students) qualifies for.

Meanwhile, there are plenty of colleges that I could easily afford to send my kids. Those same colleges that seem inexpensive to me would take a huge sacrifice for low-income students, who usually can't count on their parents to do things that middle class students take for granted. This includes providing computer, phone service, clothing for college, as well as transportation to and from college. And, help with housing deposits, transportation for interviews, a car, setting up one's living quarters after college -- all are things that low income students usually can't get from their parents, who often are working a couple of jobs just to make ends meet.

Couldn't agrree more with Calmom, Blossom, and NSM. Anyone who thinks that kids from poor or lowermiddle class families have it better are utterly free to become poor. Go ahead and try it out; see if your kids benefit.

(We were just barely UMC enough to not qualify for aid for the first six years of kids in school; downturn in income netted as a little the last two years. I feel darn lucky we had the ability to put our kids through--and do NOT feel that the many lower middle class to poor kids I know have it made.)

[Shrinkrap]

"Minority students have special scholarships. "


Hey! My D didn't get her "special" minority scholarship! 14 acceptances and not one "special" minority scholarship! ( we ARE greatful she got some merit, but not enough to sway HER choice!....and tes, we are greatful she got to choose) Guess being well-enough off ( though self employed) trumps being a minority....

[MiamiDAP]

I totally agree with Atlmom and nysmile. We had the same approach which resulted in a very happy first year at college. Our D would have gotten nothing if she applied to some top elite colleges since we would not qualify for any need based. Instead, she was able to get into very selective program for very top students at in-state college and her tuition along with large portion of Room and Board is covered by numerous Merit scholarships. Actually we ended up paying less for college then we have paid for her high school.

[Dad II]

I read the Op several times but yet to understand the points.

Are you venting because your child could not afford his/her #1 choice? Most of the people don't. Our DD will not attend her dream school because we could not afford it. The meirt aids are so competitive.

Are you venting that poor people had it better than you? Come to live a couple days in our shoes. Evenso our DD could enjoy an excellent need base FA, lower income families like us struggle every day for basic things.

Tomorrow, we are taking a road trip to see some schools for DS. Our van's tire pressures were low. I took an airpump for bike and started pumping. Why? to save that $0.25.

Like many others have stated, just be grateful that you have a high income and you have choices.

[hawk@15]

I guess it is a larger issue here too, the continuous rise in cost of schools. My intent is not to blame Fordham--at all--they tried o be decent about everything--and if we had one kid, or even two, it would be more doable. But three makes it impractical, and irresponsible for us to advise her to do it. To her credit, she understands fully.
We feel very grateful for what we have and my D did get a decent scholarship to another fine school--(St. Joseph's University) making it more affordable for all of us to swing it--not easy--in fact still a stretch, but at least she will not be leaving with huge debt. We were not looking for all of our need to be addressed, in fact we are more than willing to pay our responsible part--we were just hoping for a bit more balance. Fordham is trying to upgrade its caliber, so they are trying to attract those kids with scholarship--it's just that with this strategy, you seem to eliminate a large pool of talented kids--but I do understand what they are trying to do, just that their roots were geared more to affordability. It is not lost on us that we benefit from this same strategy from St. Joe's.
Our third child will be entering her last year of HS so we are are stressed parents trying to make the reseponsible long term decisions. Ultimately, the school choice is not that important versus who the person is. Attached are a couple of interesting articles (from students at NYU and MIT writing about similar issues).

I'm Graduating From A College I Can?t Afford | NYU Livewire

Financial Aid Leaves Out Middle Class - The Tech

[MiamiDAP]

As I keep saying to my D. - appreciate the fact that you are born in the US, you are sooo much better off than most others. Even so called "poor" people here are soo NOT poor by much using very reasonable comparisons. I mean the fact that most families own at least 1 car puts anybody to "not so poor" category. Owning a car considered a luxury in a lot of other countries where kids have to walk to schools because transportation is not provided to them either. I am not talking about underdeveloped world, for example, Russia is considered to be developed.

We also told D., if you want to get ahead, work your hardest, it pays off and she see it very well now what we meant.
By the way coincidently, she had to go to her #2 school also and very happy there. They really do not know the best choice before they actually start attending, so there is no big deal if #1 school slipped away for various reasons, it will work out at the end, they will be happy, kids are more resilient than we think.