Dartmouth just slammed me!!

['rentof2]

Adrivit, I agree that after you read their financial aid info on the web very carefully, then have a polite, detailed conversation with the financial aid office to confirm things like travel costs, health insurance, expected student earnings, and everything else. They'll only be able to give you general answers, but should be able to clear up any confusion about their policies.

My son got a very generous aid award (he also applied ED) to a school with similar policies as Dartmouth. We have a very low EFC by American standards, but it's not 0, so the part about what we as parents are expected to contribute will be very different from yours. (I expect your parents' would actually be 0 from what you say.) Still, the basic outline of the award package might clear up a few things for you.

Contribution from student's summer earnings: $1600
Contribution from parents' income and assets: $5600
Term-time student income (work-study): $1800
Student loans: 0
College scholarship (grant aid); $44,330

They also factor in a travel budget using their estimates (two trips home per year in our case) and an amount they figure for books. The way that works is that they expect the parents to pay for travel and books directly, but that amount is included in what they expect parents to contribute (in our case, the $5600 figure.) If we were expected to pay nothing at all, I don't know how they would work that. Depending on the generosity of the school they may award some funds for all or part of those expenses, but I don't know. That would be something you should ask them.

There is the health insurance issue, as Sybbie mentioned. If Dartmouth would provide half the cost to cover that, it should be no problem for you to borrow the small amount it would take to make up the difference. Since Dartmouth is dropping the student loans (make sure to confirm this applies to international students as well when you talk to them), you would be in a very good situation to borrow whatever extra amounts you needed to make it work because you wouldn't be adding that debt on top of any other loans they'd expect you take out. I imagine you could get out with pretty modest debt even if you had to borrow a little for insurance, travel, and other odds and ends.

ED is binding, but there is an out if you can't afford it after seeing your aid package. That can be iffy for middle income families because the college may end up expecting them to pay more than they feel they can afford, but in the case of *extremely* limited resources such as your parents, they would not give you a hard time about getting out of ED if the finances didn't work.

My son applied ED and needed a great deal of aid, but if the school is open about their aid policies and it's a need-based aid formula, then you can get a pretty clear idea of how it will work out. You should be prepared to borrow a little if you have to, but with no structured-in student loan piece, it won't be much and would be well worth it for the opportunity to study at a place like Dartmouth.

Just have a specific, clear conversation with them, and get as informed as you can. Good luck.

['rentof2]

And by the way, I really think you should reconsider how you reference a school as generous as Dartmouth. If you are fortunate enough to get in, you should feel gratitude for their generosity and not say things like "they slammed me!!" They were just telling you some very basic, widely known information about how financial aid works... everywhere. Schools like this are amazingly generous, and if you were in a position where you had to borrow a little to make it work... well, don't snivel about that. I understand you don't want to burden your parents, but also appreciate the generosity of the school. They don't, after all, *owe* you or my son or anyone else free money. Stop and say thank you... especially to the financial aid officers whom you write to or speak with.

[adrivit]

Thanks a lot everyone!! Thanks you so much!

Oh and sorry about the title ... I just thought maybe a catchy title would invite more comments, naive me .... sorry!!

[thumper1]

First...I agree..call Dartmouth and ask them.

Second, I'm not sure I would recommend applying ED. You have no way to compare financial aid packages from school to school...and they DO vary. They do...even for schools meeting full need.

I have a question...your EFC is 0, but that is not on the Profile, which doesn't give an EFC. Where did you get this number? Dartmouth uses institutional methodology to compute financial aid, doesn't it? This means that your income and assets can be viewed any way the college chooses to do so...AND the COLLEGE determines your need as well as how they will meet it. They do this for ALL students.

I'm not sure I understand your concern? If it's a student contribution over the four years, you would still be getting a TERRIFIC financial aid package. As 2college notes...no loans for TUITION. But room and board costs must also be taken into consideration. I don't know Dartmouth's policies re: the "full aid" for this. But their finaid folks will.

Get a summer job. Get a job working on campus.

[adrivit]

My EFC is 0 according the calculator on the Dartmouth website ...

[hsmomstef]

adrivit -- I do understand that some colleges, Dartmouth among them, do not package loans in their FA package for families making less than $75,000/yr (or some other figure -- depending on the school). However -- what you need to do is to confirm that it applies to international students. I know that at Columbia, it does not. That "no-loan" policy for families with under a certain income level is for US citizens only.

As far as expecting loans that the parents take out -- I agree, I don't know of any top schools that use that as part of the FA package, however, most of my knowledge is from US applicants.

As others have suggested, I would call and speak directly with Dartmouth. I would suggest that you approach the conversation calmly and with the intent to understand their policies and procedures. Several of you posts come across as panicky, upset or uninformed of the information readily available on their internet site. Since it is easy to misinterpret tone both on a forum and sometimes over the phone, you just want to make sure you are polite and not asking questions that are unnecessary.

I would suggest you say something like: "I am an international student from India and I am interested in apply to Dartmouth this fall. My parents are very low income and I wanted to confirm my understanding of the financial aid policies. Would I be able to speak to a financial aid officer who works with international students?"

you do want to make sure to speak with someone who knows the policies for internationals -- and not necessarily the person who answers the phone.

From what I understand about Dartmouth's new policies, I do think the will be generous and you would be very happy with their FA package if you were admitted -- I just think you need to understand some worst case scenarios, also.

Best of luck -- and let us know what they said.

[gadad]

Adrivit - We could certainly find differences between each of these schools and Dartmouth, but in general, here are schools that share some demographic and curricular similarities that are among Dartmouth's chief overlaps (other schools to who Dartmouth applicants most often also apply):

Amherst College, Boston College, Bowdoin College, Brown University, Colgate University, Cornell University, Middlebury College, Princeton University, Stanford University, Tufts University, Williams College

[JHS]

By the way, I disagree (respectfully) with those who have expressed horror that the OP would apply Early Decision to Dartmouth. Given that Dartmouth is among the half-handful of colleges that have a policy of meeting international students' need, and that it has a track record that can be checked, it seems unlikely that he would do so much better on the open market that it would justify choosing College X over Dartmouth under any circumstances, if Dartmouth seems like his top choice. If the OP applies to Dartmouth ED and is accepted, he will be one lucky guy. If he doesn't apply ED to Dartmouth, or isn't accepted ED, he will be spending a massive amount of energy trying to chase the wisp of a chance of adequate financial aid at many, many institutions that he would not choose over Dartmouth to avoid a few thousand dollars of loans or work-study commitment, with no large likelihood of success there, either.

[adrivit]

Thanks!!! Lets wait for the Dartmouth mail .... And even i think applying ED is wise. If I wait for RD and don't get in anywhere, I will be dead! But atleast I will have a higher chance of getting in ED Dartmouth(which is no less than a dream come true anyway ...) And I can always go to MIT for grad or post-doc or research or anything!!

[JHS]

adrivit: I believe (without checking; you should check) that you can simultaneously apply ED to Dartmouth and EA to MIT (and any number of other EA or rolling admission colleges, except Georgetown). If Dartmouth accepts you, you will be obligated to go there, but the chances of Dartmouth accepting you are not so high that you shouldn't be actively engaged in applying to other colleges as well. Given your situation, that should probably happen as early and as often as possible so that you have a sense of where you stand before the deadline for submitting applications in India, and because lots of colleges that award merit scholarships have very early deadlines for consideration for them.

[mini]

"ED is binding, but there is an out if you can't afford it after seeing your aid package."

But only to apply to non-competitive schools.

"Given that Dartmouth is among the half-handful of colleges that have a policy of meeting international students' need, and that it has a track record that can be checked, it seems unlikely that he would do so much better on the open market that it would justify choosing College X over Dartmouth under any circumstances."

Not an international, but I can tell you that the difference among schools claiming the same policies for us (with an uncomplicated financial need situation, and all schools claiming to meet 100% of need) amounted to up to $47k over four years.

It should only have been "a wisp of a chance" of better aid - the reality was closer to a wave than a wisp. And only a few thousand in loans and/or workstudy? You must be joking, or have a special flare for sarcasm.

There are enough wonderful colleges where the OP can apply EA that I would take ED totally off the table.

[epiphany]

With 2 daughters now, on maximum financial aid at the country's most generous & well-endowed institutions, I've determined that EFC refers to actual cash out applied to tuition/fees + board/room. It does not apply to incidentals (books, travel, personal needs). In some cases, an EFC of zero will still require the family to come up campus health insurance (or proof of alternate insurance); in other cases (as with us), the University provided that as a grant (not a loan).

The incidentals just mentioned (and as others have also described) are paid with a combination of Work-Study or other student employment during the academic year, student summer employment, and/or loans if those incidental costs cannot be met with employment or any "extra" that the parents may discover they can also supplement with. The point of an EFC of zero is that the student is not being penalized in terms of *tuition* and *housing* for earning money once admitted, to pay for incidentals. It's been determined by that college that family funds -- i.e., immediate cash -- are not available at all to pay for the institutional fees.

No student with an EFC of zero should fear that they couldn't get their freshman books, for example. There will be a loan which will then be credited back with student earnings (if possible), or which will eventually be paid back after graduation. Then in the following years, assuming the student might have summer earnings, those earnings could be used for future years' books, travel, etc. There may be also some opportunity to sell back, for partial reimbursement, selected gently used textbooks which will not be needed later -- just as there is for high school.

It is true that anyone traveling a long distance to college (between coasts, or overseas) will have higher incidental costs. For those traveling for the first time to cold weather, that will be a non-reimbursable start-up cost as well. (Wardrobe.)

I agree with mini (agreement #5 ) that ED is not a good idea for anyone needing significant financial aid. Some students who are adventurous will try it between peer institutions & hope the comparison will provide them negotiating room, but we found that approach too risky ourselves.

[JHS]

mini, the OP is in something of an all-or-nothing situation. Either he gets sufficient financial aid that he can handle on his own, or he can't do it. In his case "sufficient financial aid" would amount to 100% financing without federal loan money. So he's either got to get what amounts to a full-ride merit scholarship somewhere -- certainly a possibility, but not necessarily at any of the colleges he's mentioned, and not a possibility anyone could count on -- or he has to be accepted at one of the few colleges, including Dartmouth, that meets 100% of international need without excessive loans.

Given Dartmouth's announced policies, I don't think there's a whole lot of unpredictability in its financial aid package. He will be required to work, he may be asked to borrow some of his room and board cost. Maybe one of the other colleges that meets 100% of need would give him a better deal, true, but first he would have to get accepted, and all of them are the longest of long shots. Maybe he could get a fully funded full-ride scholarship elsewhere, but the odds on that are even longer (and handling the mechanics of most schools' processes from India will be a challenge).

Given that situation, it is conceivable to me -- "conceivable", I haven't thought about it enough to be certain, and I don't plan to -- that the OP's best chance for a realistic opportunity for a high-quality college in the U.S. is to apply ED to Dartmouth. An ED application to Dartmouth is almost certainly the best odds of being accepted at a 100%-of-international-need college, and the odds of both getting accepted and doing better elsewhere may not be good enough to give that up.

In your case, you knew to a reasonable certainty that your daughter would have the opportunity to compare 100%-of-need packages. The OP doesn't have that certainty at all. (Your daughter also, I believe, decided to attend a college that does not limit itself to meeting need. I don't know if that factored into your $11,500/year difference.) Furthermore, given its explicit policies, I think it would be difficult in the OP's case for Dartmouth to be as high above ANYBODY as $10,000/year.

[mini]

"Given Dartmouth's announced policies, I don't think there's a whole lot of unpredictability in its financial aid package."

My experience tells me there is a huge amount of unpredictability - and unpredictability that may seem small to you may be huge to the OP.

As to my d., her college met 100% of need. As did all the others, with a difference of up to $47k over four years (or three quarters of our annual income at the time.) The only "merit" advantage she received was that, for half of tuition, it was not subject to tuition inflation after the first year.

I think the ED strategy for Dartmouth is the strategy most likely to end up with OP not attending ANY prestige college. He gets admitted, meeting Dartmouth's view of 100% of his need, it isn't sufficient from his or his family's point of view, and Dartmouth releases him to apply only to "non-competitive" schools.

[adrivit]

JHS ... Thank you so much!! I think my position is clear to everyone ... Dartmouth in an IVY ... it can't be unpredictable ... it has a reputation to withhold and it can't slaughter an international who has so much commitment to the school that he applied ED. I hope this much 'feeling' is in its fin aid!!