Dartmouth just slammed me!!

[epiphany]

"I agree with the above poster that there are no real safeties for international students who need full aid. American universities are set up to educate Americans."

This poster has nailed it. Yes, our Universities are a magnet for internat'l students everywhere, including from other Western countries. Canada is somewhat of a magnet in that regard, too. But just because there are more inclusive acceptance policies than one finds in some equivalent institutions in other countries, does not mean it's just an Open Door. For internationals, the acceptance rate is lower than for US students, the financial aid considerations even more challenging. By contrast, an international who can pay full price is not as challenged for admission, because their ability to pay the higher international student fees is in itself an asset -- even for the financially strong Ivies. Thus, any internat'l student is competing on multiple levels: for admission -- with domestic & internat'l students of equal & greater accomplishment, not to mention with those of any origin with NO financial need; for financial aid -- with domestic needy students who will get priority over international needy students.

I agree with the poster or posters who stated that a safety would be located in one's home country. The secondary way to go, for anyone determined to be educated in the U.S., is the traditional practice of immigrating in some legal short-term or long-term arrangement which would allow you to live/work in the U.S. long enough to attend public community college on the cheap & then seek a transfer into a public or private 4-year institution.

Relative to many countries in Asia (especially) and Western Europe, the US college system looks like the land of opportunity. However, the reality is that application to the most popular colleges (which obviously includes Ivies like D) is the land of competition -- in qualification, in financial aid, in geography, and in all those factors combined.

[memphismom]

may I add that I learned this past application season that some of what univerities consider Int'l applicates are US high school graduates ...so the Int'l pool includes kids already in the US...

[Singersmom07]

So out of curiosity I checked out Rice's policy and it is probably a more standard reflection of reality for international students.

"International applicants must supply documentation of sufficient financial support for their first year of study at Rice before an application for admission can be processed. Need-based financial aid at Rice is available only to U.S. citizens and documented permanent residents. All accepted freshman applicants will be considered for merit awards based on academic and individual excellence. However, these awards should not be expected to cover the full cost of a Rice education."

[xiggi]

American universities are set up to educate Americans. Why should they invest so much money into foreigners?

In theory, there are many, many valid reasons why the presence of international students in the US is important. However, if universities and our government view this presence as an ... investment, they should focus a lot more on the return on investment.

A good start would be to make it entirely possible for international students to attend US schools and be placed on equal footing for admissions, but with one huge caveat: the entire cost of the education should be in the forms of LOANS and not in the form of grants.

Further it would be rather easy to implement mechanisms for erasing this type of debt with public service that serves the United States. Want to study 4 years in the US ... please come but be prepared to teach inner city kids for 5 years after graduation. Want to pursue a master's? Add another 3 years of service. In sectors that are critical to our economy, facilities for immigration should be created. In other sectors, students should be expected to return to their home country. What's so wrong to expect foreigners to ensure some form of payback?

Fwiw, the same conditions could be met by serving in the home country of the students, as long as our government taps into its foreign development funds to reimburse the schools for their investments.

Lastly, NOTHING precludes foreign alumni to dedicate their donation to funding scholarships for their fellow students, and NOTHING precludes foreign government to invest in their own citizens.

[cptofthehouse]

If you are a strong candidate for Dartmouth, you may be able to find merit awards at other schools. There are not many schools that are need blind and meet 100% of need for international applicants, so looking at schools that have some generous merit awards that do not exclude international students may be the way to go. Momfromtexas came up with a thread that gives you ways to find schools that are willing to give you a full ride.

As for applying ED, before you do so, look for the worst possible scenario under Dartmouth's financial aid policies. If you can handle that and do not feel like comparing offers, you are making a well informed decision to apply ED. I would out and out ask the DArtmouth adcoms/fin aid officer, what the worst scenario would be. Yes, you can get out of ED if you can't pay, but it is very likely to negatively impact your chances at other schools, and is a very messy procedure, as Dartmouth will have your name on the ED accept list that is circulated to anumber of other colleges. It is not that quick and easy to get out of ED.

[adrivit]

OK. So Dartmouth replied saying that if entitled to a full-ride, they would meet all of it minus loans and all. So, that's pretty great!!!

Reviving this thread --- how good are Dartmouth's science departments?? Comparable to Princeton, Stanford? How good are the research options? Or it mainly a social sciences or humanities college? That's a major factor for me.

Thanks everybody!!

[carolyn]

A few additional comments. I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but Dartmouth, like many U.S. universities uses a different financial aid application for international students. Therefore, online calculators, which are geared towards U.S. citizens, are often not a good indicator of what the university will calculate as the family EFC. This can give international students a false sense of security about the financial aid they may receive.

A common mistake that international students make is that they assume that family INCOME will be the only information considered. For international students, data about all family assets will be gathered, including the value of the family home, the value of a family business or farm, even the value of the family's cars and jewelry. They also will consider many family expeditures that are not considered at all for U.S. students, such as the amount paid to servants, vacations taken in the past year, etc..

Another mistake that international students (and actually US students too) make is to assume that "full need met" means the college or university will meet your full need as defined by YOU and your family. Instead, what the college means, is that they will meet full need for you as defined by their methodology. Often, that can be a very different number than the student's definition of "full need." I have seen many international students get snagged this way.

Therefore, it is a good idea for international students to take a close look at the ACTUAL application for financial aid for international students used by the college so they can see all of the data that will be requested in order for the college to make its determination of family need. Keep in mind that colleges will ask for proof of many of the numbers you provide, so it is important to not lie or under-estimate the truth. Dartmouth. like many colleges and unviersities, uses the College Board's Financial Aid Application For International Students, which can be found here: http://www.dartmouth.edu/apply/pdfs/...pplication.pdf (Note, this is last year's application, it will use 2008 figures for students planning to enroll in Fall 2009)

Dartmouth does require all students to contribute to their education. The amount is a minimum of over $2000 (exact number is on the website), but can be higher, depending on the student's assets and past income from employment.

I have worked with two international students who were admitted to Dartmouth and were initially thrilled when they were told that their "full need" had been met. Later, however, when they looked closely at their financial aid offer, they realized that they were expected to contribute more than they had anticipated. So, when Dartmouth was careful in the way they phrased the definition of "full need met" they meant it literally: there are no "full rides" if you think that means not contributing anything.

It is also a VERY good idea for international students to research the Visa requirements for studying in the U.S. carefully. The U.S. government has specific requirements that students show proof that they have emergency funding to cover the cost of emergencies, and returning home if they have to leave the university. These costs are not part of the "cost of attendance" used by the college to determine your financial aid, and they are not covered by financial aid awarded by the college. So, even if a college does cover "full need" the student will, in most cases, still need to show proof that they have adequate funds, above and beyond the costs covered by financial aid, to pay for these extingencies before they are granted a student Visa. This can be a difficult issue to understand, and can complicate the Visa process. Students can learn about student visa requirements and process at this website from the U.S. State Department: International Students – EducationUSA

While many international students want to side-step all of this information, believing that America is paved with "free rides," in reality the best way to get the money you need to study here is to learn everything you can about the process BEFORE you apply to any U.S. college. The time spent upfront now, will pay off after you are admitted.

Best of luck!

[carolyn]

<<The secondary way to go, for anyone determined to be educated in the U.S., is the traditional practice of immigrating in some legal short-term or long-term arrangement which would allow you to live/work in the U.S. long enough to attend public community college on the cheap & then seek a transfer into a public or private 4-year institution.
<<

International students can receive student visas to study at community colleges, but they still need to provide proof that they can pay their emergency expenses and cover their living costs while here. They can not work on a student visa, except for some on campus jobs. There is typically no financial aid available for students attending community college, and typically international students will not qualify for in-state tuition, but, if the student's family can fund their living expenses and tuition, it could save some money on the four year cost of going to school here.

Options for coming in on other "work" visas require money, an employer to sponsor you as having a needed skill, and a long wait time for approval. Students who do manage to get a work visa probably may still need to show a student visa in order to actually enroll at some community colleges. So, for most international students that isn't a viable option.

[rightnotleft]

how good are Dartmouth's science departments?? Comparable to Princeton, Stanford? How good are the research options? Or it mainly a social sciences or humanities college?

try posting this on the Dartmouth forum for better responses.

BUT, the sciences are really good. It honestly depends on what you want to study, "the sciences" are a broad category. From Geology to Physics to Molecular Biology to Environmental Sciences (to name a few), the departments are all pretty strong, but of various sizes. The Psych and Brain Sciences dept has one of the only fMRI machines dedicated solely to research in the country. If you're interested in synthetic organic chemistry ... definitely a good place to be. If you're trying to get into med school ... again, easily comparable to pretty much everywhere.

Basically, it's really easy to get research opportunities because there are so relatively few grad students and professors are always looking for more help. I've had the privilege of working with a few different professors, all who were eager to find some place for me in their work, whether directly in a lab, in the field collecting samples, or helping as an assistant with a grad student or senior thesis candidate.

On the other hand, the social sciences and humanities are very strong as well. The Econ department is probably the most popular on campus, and has a pretty good reputation for churning out successful i-bankers, while the government department is also reputedly pretty good.