Advice needed: Happily Ever After or a PhD - Page 4

colmomto2 · 03-31-2009, 12:30 PM

Quote:

I wish to marry him because I love him. Yes, he does lack some ambition. On the other hand, he is an excellent cook, keeps the house clean while I am stressing over deadlines, extremely caring and always supportive. I'd almost say gender roles reversed, but have no wish to insult his masculinity.

This is a HUGE red flag. Stop. Do not pass go. You will not collect $200. While it seems appealing that your bf can cook and keep house, when the time comes to start earning money so you can buy a house and start a family his lack of ambition is going to be a huge sticking point between you, especially if you pursue a career in academia with an English degree. What seems attractive now may become fodder for a divorce later. (I'm not saying that will happen, but poverty sucks after grad school.)

I agree with oldfort that you need to be a self-sufficient woman who can take (good)financial care of herself before you join together with someone else. Once you've achieved finanical independence, you will be better able to appreciate (or not) his view on financial responsibility.

Go for the Ph.D. I love having mine (earned after the divorce from the "lack of ambition" husband.) Should have earned it right after the MFA, but got married 2 weeks after awarded the masters degree. Thought it was what I wanted, but turned out to be years spent in frustration with an ambitionless (is this a word!?) husband and father to my children. Not saying your life will turn out this way - just think about it, please.

alh · 03-31-2009, 12:35 PM

Blackberry Winter: My Earlier Years by Margaret Mead

Do you know this book? It might be an interesting read at this point in your life?

Looking up the book title, I came across this Mead quote:

Quote:

• In 1976: We women are doing pretty well. We're almost back to where we were in the twenties.

busyparent · 03-31-2009, 12:37 PM

"but our cultural background basically requires an expensive celebration"

Sorry but this says to me someone who wants a wedding more than a marriage.

The expensive celebration lasts for an afternoon, the PhD for a lifetime.

please quit responding "but but but" and listen to the advice sought.

tk21769 · 03-31-2009, 12:49 PM

Briseis, you have not told us much about your Achilles. You said,

>>He has been working full-time for a while now, and is eager to buy a place of our own. On his current salary, buying anything would be impossible (tis not an easy time for BAs in English), but if I would make a similar amount, we could afford a nice little house and get married.

What's up with this rush to buy a house? From what little you've said, it sounds as though your own ambitions may be a little more mature than his are. Earning a Ph.D. is a realistic goal for you, one that follows naturally from interests you have cultivated over many years. You have some concept of how to pay for it and of what you'd have to give up. Buying a house, on the other hand, doesn't seem to be a realistic short-term goal if (as I assume) he is in his mid-20's with no significant savings or a stable profession. At best, apparently, he has some concept of what you would have to give up.

Some young men get an urge to own property that is not unlike the urge a young woman can get to have a baby. He may be seeking a rite of passage that education and career aren't providing. The true rite of passage is not in owning the house, it is in sacrificing something, willingly, to get and keep it. Sounds like your man is in a rush to don Achilles' armor and venture a little too far past the ships, as it were.

Does this make any sense? You know him, we don't. You're getting cheap counsel here; ideally we'd be putting you BOTH on the couch.

oldfort · 03-31-2009, 12:53 PM

She is getting some great, truthful counseling here. I don't think her family and friends would be as honest with her. Some of us may not even be this honest with our own kids.

Northstarmom · 03-31-2009, 12:53 PM

"Something else is going on in my life as well: my boyfriend recently proposed. He has been working full-time for a while now, and is eager to buy a place of our own. On his current salary, buying anything would be impossible (tis not an easy time for BAs in English), but if I would make a similar amount, we could afford a nice little house and get married. I want this wedding more than anything, but I'm just not really ready to settle for a less than perfect career.

However, graduate studies are expensive. In the best case scenario (due to all sorts of circumstances) I could get my tuition fees waivered and maybe an additional 2000,- per year to cover expenses. There is no more funding available to me and it is still nowhere near enough to pay for the course. If I would attempt a PhD, there will be no wedding or house, but a considerable loan and some poverty in the near future."

It does not sound like you are ready for marriage. It is fine to take your time -- to even live together for a while, something that many couples are doing.

There is no hurry to buy a house, etc.

You may be able to find a program that would pay for you to get your doctorate. Look for such programs. From what you've posted, it seems like what's of most interest to you now is getting your doctorate, so find a way to do that. That may include moving. This is perhaps the easiest time left in your life to move. You don't have a house to sell or kids to worry about. Your boyfriend, too, has the ability to follow you. It doesn't sound like he has yet gotten a good job.

If you get married, you don't have to have a house. Most people start out in an apartment. Also if you are considering going on to your doctorate, having a house will keep you tied to one location.

As for living happily ever after, that's not your choice either. Most marriage, sad to say, end in divorce. If they don't end in divorce, they end in death. So, don't confuse things by suggesting that life is a fairytale.

If you want to get married, you also can have a very inexpensive wedding. It's not the wedding that's important: It's the marriage.

pugmadkate · 03-31-2009, 12:53 PM

There a lot of things you should not do unless you are absolutely sure; marriage, buying a house and committing to grad school are three of them.

Why does your boyfriend want to buy a house? Why now? Does it not strike you as even a little bit odd that buying a house is going to be the thing that prevents you from getting your PhD?

We were married for ten years before we bought our first house. A house is a thing. Invest in yourself first.

Quote:

Sound advice, only I could not really afford counseling either...

If you cannot afford counseling, you cannot afford a house. Once you buy a house, you pay for all repairs. Do you have 1-5K in savings for when one of the major systems in your house breaks down? Plumbing, electricity and water cannot be put off until you save up enough. You need to have cash on hand or go into debt.

Northstarmom · 03-31-2009, 12:56 PM

"This is a HUGE red flag. Stop. Do not pass go. You will not collect $200. While it seems appealing that your bf can cook and keep house, when the time comes to start earning money so you can buy a house and start a family his lack of ambition is going to be a huge sticking point between you, especially if you pursue a career in academia with an English degree. What seems attractive now may become fodder for a divorce later. (I'm not saying that will happen, but poverty sucks after grad school.)

I agree with oldfort that you need to be a self-sufficient woman who can take (good)financial care of herself before you join together with someone else. Once you've achieved finanical independence, you will be better able to appreciate (or not) his view on financial responsibility."

I agree, too.

My advice is to find a way to get your doctorate -- whether or not your boyfriend moves with or stays with you.

More than likely, you'll learn more about yourself and the world while you're getting your doctorate. It's possible that what you want out of life -- including in terms of a marital partner -- will change, too, so no need to rush into marriage now.

Northstarmom · 03-31-2009, 12:59 PM

"My boyfriend is currently employed at minimum wage basically, and it's not related to his degree at all, but it is a job, and if we move away somewhere, it might be difficult for him to find something new (he worries about this especially)."

Not at all a good time for him to be talking about buying a house. He has no financial stability, and I wonder about his general decision making abilities. The fact that he wouldn't move for fear of not finding a job also concerns me. It's not as if he's in a stable situation now: a minimum wage job doesn't sound very stable, certainly it's not something to cling to without looking at alternatives elsewhere.

I also wonder about why he's proposing marriage to you now. Is he looking at you as his safety net instead of his looking for ways of his becoming truly financially independent? Since he's only making minimum wage, I doubt he has basics like health insurance and other benefits. Doesn't seem he has much to offer a marital partner. I'd say the same, incidentally, if he were a woman proposing marriage to her partner.

Briseis · 03-31-2009, 01:00 PM

I am listening to all your advice, and really appreciate it. It's even a bit overwhelming to get so many sincere responses on an online forum as well. Of course, I occasionally will respond with a but, but, but, because it's impossible to share every detail of my story. Especially because my boyfriend is quite a selfless person who has made many sacrifices for me in the past (moving to a different country, just for a start), I can get a bit defensive of him. I do appreciate everything you all said, harsh or not, even though I may not always agree.

The buying a house is really a side issue. It's whether I should choose financial security (and I would have this if I would stay here, get a job and move away from the dump we are renting now) or whether I should pursue my very costly dream. Reading your posts has made me realise that even though it is scarier, I must choose the latter option. This will involve uprooting my boyfriend and myself once again and leaving the life we have here. That's not easy, and especially hard on the one who is not pursuing a life-time ambition or dream. However, I may regret it forever if I stay.

marite · 03-31-2009, 01:06 PM

Myth #1: You need a big expensive wedding. No, you don't. We married right after I graduated from college and paid for our own wedding. It cost very very little.

Myth #2: Home ownership is good for you. It depends. See article below:
Credit Slips: The Myth of Homeownership

I am concerned about the gap in his and your career ambitions. You may appreciate his supportive qualities--and they are admirable--but I fear that sooner or later, your own ambitions and his lack of same will cause friction.

Cross-posted with OP: If you do pursue a Ph.D., you will receive financial aid (I would not suggest doing so on your dime). The stipend will not be generous but you won't starve. It might be more, in fact, than the minimum wage which your bf seems to be earning.

OperaDad · 03-31-2009, 01:08 PM

Are you getting married to Him, or to the dream? I know, women like the story book wedding, and living happily ever after.

Life is full of trade-offs. It is not: 1) PhD; 2) Marriage; but (from what I see):

1) PhD with possible future Dream Wedding/home;
2) PhD with modest wedding, modest home; or
3) No PhD with dream wedding.

So, you have to balance 3 things. Which one will you regret the most 10 years from now?

a) Not having a PhD
b) Not having a Dream Wedding
c) Him leaving you because you are not willing to make a commitment yet

BTW: I'm not sure how this is relevant, but if he is in a minimum wage job unrelated to his interests, he can get one of those almost anywhere.

pugmadkate · 03-31-2009, 01:24 PM

Quote:

I know, women like the story book wedding, and living happily ever after...

Not once they are old enough to be called "women." The vast majority of women I know, if they want to get married, want a good marriage and know it's hard work.

alh · 03-31-2009, 01:24 PM

Quote:

I wish to marry him because I love him. Yes, he does lack some ambition. On the other hand, he is an excellent cook, keeps the house clean while I am stressing over deadlines, extremely caring and always supportive. I'd almost say gender roles reversed, but have no wish to insult his masculinity.

In response to all the posts reading the above as a negative: I have women friends who are the primary wage earners of their families and very appreciative of male partners with the characteristics the OP is listing. The difference is that they don’t really believe in gender roles and don’t consider homemaking to be lacking in ambition. They have great marriages. But their husbands never tried to limit their career aspirations.

edit: after reading the OP's last post. If he is uprooting himself and following you around the world (with your encouragement), I do feel you have a obligation to make up your mind whether you see him as your life partner and let him know. That is only fair. JMHO

ClassicRockerDad · 03-31-2009, 01:27 PM

Don't be scared. The downside is minimal, the upside is huge.

If your boyfriend is making minimum wage and has limited ambition, you are not risking much in the way of financial security to both pick up and move. I would also guess that he shares your ambition and wants you to be happy and fulfilled. If that means moving from place to place until you have tenure, I'm sure he'll he happy to move as long as it's in pursuit of your dreams. If the wedding is not feasible without the expensive celebration, wait until it's feasible. Don't buy a house though. Why own when you can rent? Something breaks, not your problem. Need to move, no problem.

We lived in an owner occupied two-family for 5 years through graduate school at dirt cheap rent. We were the first people to ever bring the rent check to our elderly landlords (vs. having to come and ask for it). They didn't raise the rent for 4 years out of fear that we would move. It was like having mom and dad upstairs. She would cook and try new recipes out on us, and I would occasionally fix things when they broke and shovel snow. Life continues in graduate school.

It could all be worth it if you can have that singular drive necessary to get that tenure-track job. It sounds like this relationship could be supportive of that. There is nothing that compares to having a job where you get paid to spend your time doing what you'd want to do anyway.