Really angry at son - need some perspective

[fendrock]

I am struck by the common thread in the replies that we should accept our offspring as they are, rather than pushing them to do their very best every day.

Does the "pushing" work? Can one person force another to do something he or she doesn't want to do?

That's what's at issue here.

As for an alternative approach where the drive for top performance is nonnegotiable -- we see many posts on this board reflecting the fallout of parents who push too much....

[poetgrl]

There's a book called "Influencers" which is an interesting and pretty well-researched book which posits that we accept as a fait acompli many things we can actually help to change through our influence.

I don't know, though, if pushing works. I have two extremely different kids. Both are motivated in many ways and work incredibly hard in the areas where they are motivated. One is a fantastic student, against incredible odds (dyslexia, dysgraphia). The other is not a student by any stretch of the imagination, but a phenomenal athlete. The athlete is also, btw, the kind of kid every teacher LOVES to have in the classroom, they are all just crazy about her, as a person, and they probably give her a "pass" on a lot of the work less charming kids would have to wade through.

Given the current brain research, I just keep hoping her frontal lobe will get bigger faster! In the meantime, I attempt to influence her to do her work--to varying results.

She's a strong personality. Nobody in thier right mind would worry about her being successful in the adult world. Still, I sometimes feel like I am completely failing her if I can't get her to understand the value of hard work. She laughs at me. "Hard work? I work hard every day. I'm focused." She is. It's just not where "I" used to think she ought to be focused.

Five mile run! Chunky Monkey! Haagen Daz Coffee. I'm not really kidding. The thing about being frustrated is we lack the ability to communicate effectively. With teenagers, the minute the adult loses thier cool, they lose thier credibility.

Does the pushing help? Probably not. But, as a parent, a part of what we have to be able to know is that we did everything that we could do. Once that is done, we can let it go.

[oldfort]

Actually I see a lot more fall out of parents just letting their kids do what they want - "whatever makes you happy." Maybe not as much so on CC. Kids don't always do the right thing - given a choice of doing what's easy vs hard, they would choose easy because often they are focused on short term. It's also easier for parens not to do anything because it would avoid confrontation.

I do agree at some point it has to be up to the kid. Work ethic is to be instilled at a young age, not at age 17. I feel it is still the parents job to explan the consequences to the kid and it would be up to the kid to do what he wants. I just see it too often parents come on this board to take on the responsibility/worry about their kids don't have good enough grades to get into certain schools.

[peppermintlounge]

Been there too - I think some of the approach is hardwired with the kid - DS1 (09) was never motivated to do the "extra" in a classroom setting - whether the extra was to open the book or to rewrite a paper for an A. He is motivated to do it in a work setting...so, perhaps it does have something to do with the dynamic of the school, the seemingly petty nature of certain assignments (busy-hell according to my DS), or the classroom companions' influence on brown-nosing type behavior. DD is different - will always do the 'extra' - completes all the busy work...

My advice is to also 'back-off'. I too had an awful year with my DS - and the application process was a nightmare...our relationship was clearly negative for a great deal of time this year because I was always chasing him to complete something and not loving the kid on the couch..Bottom line was I knew that consequences would follow from his behavior, and they did ---- senior slide in grades really hurt him in this admissions' cycle - and I chased him thinking he would turn around ---- he did not. But, he sees the truth now...
when he saw the seniors' list of acceptances, and realized that he would be attending a school that he never dreamed he would...

You can try to forestall the disappointment, but, in this context, it is going to happen anyway, so back off when you can....you will be sane, he will find his own path - he may never be a type A but best accept that now than have a ruined relationship. Most kids - IMHO - really do want the parents to be proud of them.

[marite]

I realize that the two situations are quite different, but the juxtaposition is too interesting to pass up:

From this thread "Really angry at son--need some perspective"

I am struck by the common thread in the replies that we should accept our offspring as they are, rather than pushing them to do their very best every day.

From the thread "
Parental Pressure: a student in need of advice"

I'm a current junior living in a house that is very academically-inclined. That's not necessarily to say that my family is abnormally intellectual-- I am instead referring to the priorities of my parents and I. All my life I have felt supported in all my academic endeavors, but my dad is a worrier, and the pressure he has put on me as I grow into a young adult preparing for college has gotten to be just too much for me to handle. He loves to control; he can't stand watching me do anything but homework for fear that I may "fall behind in my studies" or something like that.

It seems like the more he tells me to go "study" or "work", the less I want to do it. He told me constantly to study for the ACT, but because of his pressure (and my lack of time), I didn't, and ended up with an almost perfect score anyways. Though he often expresses his pride in me for the amount of hard work I do, I often feels as though what I do is never enough. I know that he is trying to live vicariously through me; he turned down the chance to go to a very prestigious school in order to have a "good time" in college, and now he wants to see me go to an ivy league so that I may fulfill his dream for him. My problem is that I want to go to the same very good schools, too, but for myself, not for him.

[fendrock]

marite, I was thinking of that thread also.

I'm waiting to hear from parents who, faced with a recalcitrant kid, laid down the law and the problem was solved.... has never happened in this household....although it has been tried more than once!

[mamom]

>I'm waiting to hear from parents who, faced with a recalcitrant kid, laid down the law and the problem was solved.... has never happened in this household....although it has been tried more than once! <

Never happened here either. But, I can't believe that means I should just sit back and let bad behavior happen. Every new year we tell ourselves this is the year he starts acting responsibly.

[peppermintlounge]

fendrock - Amen on that one. Perhaps if you have a class A obiedient teenager - but there are none in my house that accept the 'lay down the law' route. The harder I try, the harder I fail....

It is hard to see the consequences, and know that your child does not appreciate them. It is hard to get boys (sorry for the sexism here but that is how I have seen it play out) to appreciate that small efforts can produce significant rewards in the big picture....It is hard to watch your son or daughter be dissapointed when they finally get it. Parenting is ---just ----- hard.

[researchmaven]

Many of you parents are not reading the OP's original post. Did she describe herself as a parent who just let things go? No! She's been pushing her kid all a long. But now he seems to have gotten the message and has greatly improved. He has now told her to back off--he can handle it. Hmom5-I think your comment is funny. Your son is at grad school at MIT, so obviously things worked out OK for him. If you would have pushed him more in high school you have no idea what would have happened--it could have backfired. I am in no way advocating a laissez-faire attitude to child-rearing but a parent must take into account the temperament of each child as well as their age. A child is more than an intellect, they have emotions and other aspects. You have to look at the whole child.

[poetgrl]

You know, it's funny, too. Because would you even want to raise a child who could have "the law laid down" and then send them out into the world? That's the thing. H and I made a decision when our girls were young that we didn't want to socialize all the independence and hutzpa out of them and leave them easy to walk all over. So, you pay the price (sorry, but I just learned how to do that face and find it very exciting!). You either have a kid who can be bossed around or a kid who cannot. We have a cannot. But, it isn't only in the house, that's the thing. The kids who know who they are and are willing to stick to it, even with you, are not going to be as easily influenced as thier peers. By ANYONE. So, yeah, it's a tradeoff, but it probably makes them safer out there where there are a lot of people trying to get them to do a lot of things, and not all of those things are homework!

[momofthreeboys]

This is all so interesting. I had to step back and realize that not every single aspect of high school will impact my kids' futures. I had to separate my belief that the ultimate goal of high school was the acceptance into a "better" college and that a "better college" means a "better adult life." I had to come to the realization through some introspection on my own life (graduated at the top of my high school, went to a good college, decent grad school) and where I and many of my contemporaries are in life today was impacted abit by our teen years and college years but that the greatest determinate of adult "success" or "failure" was really predicated by who we are as individuals. The whole concept of emotional IQ vs. intellectual IQ, where our moral compasses are, how events shape our life changes. I had to stop and realize that our almost adult children are just that. They are different from us and yes, I have to accept them for who they are. Is this a "Western" culture attitude today...perhaps. I do think though that I cannot say that because my S1 never went above and beyond in APUSH or Trig or sports that he will "never" go above and beyond in everything he does. I cannot assume that because he was a B+ high school student that it will be on life's B team. He is already proving that out. People are the sum of their parts.

[CountingDown]

I find on both threads that I'm having to look in the mirror and reflect on our actions as parents. We've always tried to emphasize that working hard and doing well may not always bring immediate rewards, but does gives one choices down the road -- in terms of colleges, chances to do interesting programs, etc., etc.

DH has gotten through much of the uphill in his life through "force of will" and that's what he has tried to instill in the kids. The horror on DH's face was palpable when S1 tanked a class winter quarter and did not seek out help from anyone -- not the prof, TA, advisor, even a friend. S1's utterly honest, impassioned response: "I was trying to solve it through force of will." It was earth-shattering for DH to see that his efforts to instill "force of will" kept S1 from attempting the logical outreach that should have taken place. This is a kid who has incredible internal motivation -- as long as it's something which interests him. As for the rest of it, he tries to push himself through, and found out last quarter that at this level, that is not an effective strategy.

We've kind of hit the wall between intrinsic motivation and the desire to accomplish goals on one's own vs. the real need to be able to reach out and ask for help when needed without it feeling like a capitulation or admission of inadequacy.

With S2, DH tells him to do his best and that will be good enough -- but when the report card rolls in, heaven help the kid. Not that his grades are terrible, esp. given the program he's attending, but but it is immensely frustrating when his Bs are 88/89s and it's hard to tell (without getting more involved than I think is appropriate at this stage of the game) if it's truly the best he can do or if one more push would get him over the top. If he'd let his internal motivation show a little more, it would be harder to jump to the conclusion he's slacking. He is just not into public displays of effort. He perceives that as brown-nosing and grade-grubbing.

[momreads]

Eden10583, geekmom is right. Your son is heading in the upward direction, so that's something to celebrate. To hag him only creates issues -- we have this with our youngest. He hates to write book reports, and he has to write lots of them for his English classes in middle school. He argues. He yells. But somehow, he gets it done. All I do is remind him that he has responsibilities. If he does not want to do his assignments, there will be consequences.

If your son thinks he can handle it, let him. Letting go is the hardest thing we do as parents. The decision has to be his, or you will spend plenty of time fighting.

[CountingDown]

We would happily take a student's successful effort to pull up his grade from a B- to an A-. S2 has been the perpetual B+ math student since middle school and he has pulled a high A in Calculus this semester. He hasn't stopped grinning like an idiot yet. And, he did it all himself. I didn't give him any extra problems, remind him about HW, or bug him about getting help from the teacher (which I will admit I have done in the hopes that teaching him how to advocate and take responsibility for his own learning -- plus there are some executive function issues that make this more important than it might be for others).

I haven't contacted a teacher since mid-soph year (when S was injured and we needed to arrange for alternative due dates on assignments). Do I still encourage S2 to talk to teachers? You betcha -- esp. after seeing how S1 feared doing so. Frankly, I had the same fear when I was in college, and it did not do me any favors.

[marite]

countingdown:

I think the issue with your H and S are different. They have plenty of self-motivation; but that does not preclude seeking outside help. It's not the same as needing to be bullied into doing what is good for them. In fact, one could argue that it should include seeking outside help in order to do better.