Stop Me From Jumping The Gun!

[menloparkmom]

^^ that totally makes sense.

[goaliedad]

I can understand your situation.

It sounds like you are fighting the familiar favorite on more than one front. It is very smart to make sure they don't get too comfortable with NU to the extent that they shut out other alternatives.

And perhaps with their familiarity with NU much of any discussion surrounding any campus visit is how it compares with the "known quantity". It isn't important whether it is a fair or not, it is the reality.

And how they view NU will very much color their opinions as to how a college should be.

[Pizzagirl]

This all makes me feel better about our plan to go see UIUC, DePaul / U of Chicago, and some teeny-tiny colleges in teeny-tiny Illinois towns because the objective is really see what you think of this type of atmosphere, right? And give them practice in looking what to look for?

S will groove on that, I am sure. He's really into ambience and he's going to be a big "fit" kind of person. D not so much, I don't think. She even said to me, "Shouldn't I go for the best academics? What do I care what the surroundings are like?" H and I tried to talk her out of that by saying that you'll be living there for 4 years and it's important that the surroundings are pleasant to you (not to say that there's only one perfect fit at all, but there's a qualitative difference between a small town college and a college that is right in the heart of the big city, even if academics and student-body caliber are 100% equal). I'd love some more advice on how to get that through to her. I'm afraid she's more (gasp) prestige driven, LOL.

[Skyhook]

Pizzagirl, maybe your daughter really means it, and the academics are her primary criterion. Doesn't sound like prestige, sounds like she wants a challenge. On the other hand, you probably know her well enough to know whether she hates cold weather, loves big football crowds, etc.

[goaliedad]

With regards to your daughter, I think that you also need to find a way to demonstrate the professor access differences between a large research university and a LAC. While it is impressive that your distinguished professor has this wonderful research project going, the fact that s/he only has 5 office hours per week to share with x-hundred other students and for the most part you deal with grad students may have an impact on your educational experience.

Now granted, that is not how all research universities work (many do involve their undergraduates), I think there is something to be demonstrated by being able to walk to the professor's house in a small town for an informal event.

I think that this is something that LACs have a difficult time demonstrating to touring prospective students, although you can often get face time with faculty during tours at some LACs (appointment necessary) - enough to get the point across that accessability is there.

[Pizzagirl]

Fair point. I think it's made more difficult by the fact that S has distinct interests / preferences / intended major area and D doesn't. She's completely undecided. Which is totally cool, of course, and I have no desire to push her into declaring a field of interest, but makes it a different ballgame than "we're looking for schools that are good in XYZ field."

Maybe that's part of my question. As I've posted before about S, he's interested in international relations / political science / history and he might want to wind up working in the DC area, so that at least provides a start to the process -- gee, let's look at Georgetown and American and GWU and go from there (he's not Princeton material, so I think it silly to pin hopes that high). He's also interested in ROTC so there is another level to overlay. But D doesn't have those interests. Like I said, that's fully OK with me, but it makes it more challenging since we don't have that criteria to work against. Suggestions?

[Pizzagirl]

Now granted, that is not how all research universities work (many do involve their undergraduates), I think there is something to be demonstrated by being able to walk to the professor's house in a small town for an informal event.

It's interesting that you say this, because that's almost precisely word for word what H was telling her the other day (and that we didn't have that experience at NU, though that's not to say no one did -- we just may not have been the type to have been tuned in to it).
However, D is an introvert like me. Honestly, the idea of going to her professor's house doesn't fill her with "oh, how cool!" It fills her with "I'd rather be left alone, thanks. See you in class." I agree that it can be an advantage, but whether it's a selling point I think depends on the individual.

[nngmm]

Pizzagirl,
For an introvert, an LAC experience can be especially rewarding.
A very driven outgoing student can get to know his/her profs even at a large U. A quite introvert may get to senior year without having a single prof know him/her well enough to write a LOR. This will not happen at LAC.

[goaliedad]

However, D is an introvert like me.

ROFL

More seriously though, if nothing else taking her to schools that have a fairly cohesive community (generally small town) to contrast with NU where there are so many options that an introvert may get lost in the shuffle and struggle to find her small group of friends. Hard to demonstrate on a tour, but when you look at people in public at these schools, you can see them more engaged with each other as compared to the heads-down, lets-get-to-class look of more impersonal institutions.

But perhaps she is one of the heads-down type... Or perhaps she just hasn't come out of her shell yet...

And actually with 2 very different kids, it might be worth your while to take them together on trips to places that one will like more than the other. If nothing else, it will confirm their preferences.

[Pizzagirl]

I agree that such a characteristic is difficult to tell on a tour, where you're just looking at pretty buildings and what-not.
Dumb question, but is it "acceptable" for a hs student to go up to a bunch of current students in the cafeteria or student center and say, "Hey, I'm considering here, what do you all think of it?" Or is that fraught with danger if they just happen to get a bunch of jerks?

[goaliedad]

I'm not sure if the random students you ask would be prepared to give a full accounting of their experience at any given school. Actually, if your kids are into people watching, just sitting in the cafeteria observing the natives in action will tell a lot about the social scene at any school.

However, asking the locals could give you an idea of how friendly they are.

I think when senior year rolls around if there are schools with an overnight program available, it is definitely worth considering. I'm not sure how likely your introvert is to take up such an offer, though. Surprisingly, goaliegirl is not really wanting to do an overnight at one of the schools on her list, although she does want to see it again (this time with students present). She is probably more on the introvert side of the scale too. Personally, I think that considering the unique nature of this particular school (not divulging online), it would be invaluable to have that overnight experience to see if it is really for her.

[CountingDown]

See if your kids know anyone at some of the schools they might be considering. Having some sort of entree helps, esp. for introverted types. One of the best (and most unexpected) parts of the summer math program and all those nerdy Olympiad, programming, math and science competitions S1 participated in was that he developed an INCREDIBLE network of "colleagues" -- some his age, some younger, some grad students and college faculty. He knew someone at every school he considered and was able to get inside info that he never could have uncovered otherwise. Knowing folks helped him get entree to other folks as well (i.e., at the cafeteria).

Some of these friends also shared with S their write-ups and blog entries of various colleges. These folks tended to be older than S, but had relevant, recent, on-the-ground intelligence. He also knew the people well enough that he could tell what criticisms were specific to a person's own likes/dislikes, and what comments were also applicable to his own concerns.

These reports were so bloody useful that we asked our kids to write up reports for each school they visited. They are great for "Why X?" questions, to help keep track of which school had the coll class/ice cream, and to share with others.

Needless to say, this stuff appealed hugely to both of S's "J" parents (INTJ and ISFJ). S1 is also a "J" so he was totally onboard with this kind of analysis.

S1 pays it forward now when other folks ask him for advice!

[Pizzagirl]

These reports were so bloody useful that we asked our kids to write up reports for each school they visited. They are great for "Why X?" questions, to help keep track of which school had the coll class/ice cream, and to share with others.

Now THAT's a great idea. I could see my kids sparking to writing up reports so they could keep notes / compare, esp with each other. Any suggestions on things they should take note of?

[Bromfield]

Now THAT's a great idea. I could see my kids sparking to writing up reports so they could keep notes / compare, esp with each other. Any suggestions on things they should take note of?

I think it would be most helpful if your kids just wrote about their impressions of the college, the folks they met, and anything (academic or otherwise) that struck them as interesting, unusual, weird, etc. You don't want the writing exercise to become a checklist sort of thing where they're looking for answers to questions--most of the specifics you can get from a website.

My youngest D had lots of friends (mostly from her camp counselor experience) who attended some of the colleges we visited. She contacted these friends to see if they were going to be around when we visited. She found doing so was extremely helpful because she got another view of what was happening on campus--she went to get coffee with one friend, spent an evening in the dorm with another, and got to go to a theater performance with someone else.

[CountingDown]

My kids wrote about --

1) The classes they visited (what they were discussing, level of student interaction with prof, kinds of questions that students asked). S2 (my socially observant guy) went on one tour and wrote afterwards that the tour guide said, "While you'll have 300 people in your Bio lecture, it'll be an up-close and personal class, because after the first week, noone attends." That school came off the list!

S2 told me yesterday that at one school, a polisci prof gave weekly current events quizzes for his IR class because there was not a common base of working knowledge about what's happening in the world. S was pretty shocked by this, as it is a well-regarded school and he expected that IR students would be...well...into this sort of stuff! He noted that other schools on his list *did* have students who were already well-read. They both were able to sit in on upper div classes in their intended majors by contacting profs in advance.

2) Visits with profs after class or in their offices

3) Chats with anyone else in the department (advisors, administrators, etc.)

4) General info on dorms and food (not a big deal for S1; bigger deal for S2)

5) If the school has a signature program or experience for all freshmen (i.e., UChicago's Core; Reed's HUM 101), sitting in and taking notes will help a student analyze if this is a good fit.

6) S1 wrote about conversations he had with other students and what they did on overnights. (This was a biggie.)

7) S2 visited and took notes on sports facilities (he wants to play a D-III sport, but even if that doesn't happen, the facilities are important to him)

8) With S1, because he was talking to folks in the same major he was considering, people were able to tell him Prof So-and-So teaches this from a X viewpoint; this department focuses on applied vs. pure; this school let me take early graduate work; this one is good about getting kids into a lab.

I'll have to go home and see what else they wrote about. I found the reports really interesting because it showed me what each kid felt was important -- and it wasn't always what I expected it to be. Their insights led to lots of interesting conversations at home and provided lots of ideas for essays.

Heck, we were camping this weekend and talking about things S2 used to do as a kid. Suddenly, S jumped out of his beach chair and said, "you know, I could use that in my X essay," and then he started making all these links to other things that helped "paint the picture," as I call it.

In general, they focused on stuff not available on a website or info session.