time to power down the helicopter?

['rentof2]

It's all just about criticizing other people. Labeling them this season's buzz word will go on until we are delivered a new one, I suppose. Carry on.

[jonri]

I think I was about as involved a parent as it's possible to be at the high school level (though I wasn't permitted to read application essays). I not only think that someone applying to grad, med or law school should be handling everything themselves--even if parents are paying--I think that parents have a really outsized ego if they assume they CAN help UNLESS they are in the same field. Even then, like yours truly, they may be very out of date in some respects.

I seriously doubt that a 56 year old pediatrician really knows what makes for a good law school personal statement. (See article.) Why would she? So, why should she be giving her kid any advice as to what to write? Why on earth would she think that her kid is less capable of figuring out what to write for a personal statement for law school than a pediatrician is?!!! Hey, I might go to the book store and buy a copy of Montauk & Klein's book on getting into top law schools and give it to my kid if my kid had said that the college's law school adviser wasn't very helpful , but I can't imagine being such an egomaniac that I would think that I should read it myself and then review my kid's personal statement.

Researching graduate programs for your kid? Unless you're talking about researching something like a master's in education for a kid who has not yet taken any education courses, I don't see why a parent would think himself/herself more capable of determining how good a program is than a student is. Making up an example, there is no way that I could look at the list of employers who hired from two different graduate programs in engineering and have any idea of which list was more impressive. Trying to figure out which offered better courses or had a better faculty would be WAY beyond my capabilities.

Helping a high school kid with the college application process, especially when finances must be taken into account is fine. Reviewing the personal statement of someone 23 or 24 years of age applying to law school or advising her which 1L summer position to take is not.

[frazzled2thecore]

There is a reason why so many proclaim that getting a job or getting into a school can be infinitely more difficult for some students than excelling at either.

And, in other threads where parents and students are asking why a student would go to an expensive private (even taking out loans) rather than a public - one reason might be that perks such as extensive advising, help in figuring out how to apply for internships, grad schools, or jobs, or access to connections with recruiters from desirable companies, available only to the children of helicopter parents or students in an honors program in the public, might be available to anyone who is motivated at a private school.

As schools cut back on advising and recruiters cut back on trips to all but a few schools in this constricted economic climate, expect to see a upsurge in what schools complain about as "helicopter parenting."

[geomom]

Young people OUGHT to be getting mentoring and help from others - especially outside of formal institutional support. I'm really happy my son joined a fraternity that does academic reviews of the brothers, holds review sessions for popular classes, etc. It's not hand-holding, it's accountability. I expect him to get tons of opinions in choosing classes, choosing grad school; maybe some of these opinions will even come from his parents!

I find the word "helicoptering" is bandied about by two groups:

1) Those that think asking for help and advice is a weakness. Several posters, above, pointed out how poorly that can turn out!

2) Those that have a legitimate responsibility to mentor young people, and screw up, and then have the nerve to resent parents that step in to demand they do a decent job.

[mythmom]

marite: I love the tone of your post here, and your reminder that in "the real world" some very successful people have people behind them helping them with tasks not in their tool kit.

I still call my H if I get a flat tire on the way to work. He's self employed. I am soooooooo happy he is willing to come.

As for grad school and my kids -- my "helicoptering" stopped when each wanted to fly the helicopter themselves and fly solo.

Do I judge other families in which this point came sooner or later? Not at all.

Each of mine does not want me racing ahead anymore and doing research and providing information. S/he wants to tell me the parameters of her/his choice.

So back to my own life. Boring.

For the record, let me say that I have a son with ADD, and my friends, who were very annoyed that I wouldn't leave my kids alone with sitters Saturday nights said I was "very overprotective", each child has been abroad without me and each child is dealing with grad school issues without me.

If one or both of them still wanted my help I would see nothing wrong with that either.

I just realized what I'm saying is, as long as the desire of advice/input comes from the child, it's all good. If it comes from an intrusive and controlling parent, that's not as constructive.

And Hanna's point is valid -- that parents should not be a visible part of the graduate application process, but if some help is still needed at that point, it doesn't mean the child will not eventually step up and be his/her own person.

And of course, if a grad school admissions committee considers a candidate too dependent or incompetent for its program, it will not admit him/her (unless of course the student is very well connected or full-pay in a sea of kids on fellowships.)

Do any of us doubt that Jackie O coached JFK Jr until he could finally (third time) pass that bar exam?

[BCEagle91]

> Researching graduate programs for your kid? Unless you're talking about researching
> something like a master's in education for a kid who has not yet taken any education
> courses, I don't see why a parent would think himself/herself more capable of determining
> how good a program is than a student is. Making up an example, there is no way that I
> could look at the list of employers who hired from two different graduate programs in
> engineering and have any idea of which list was more impressive. Trying to figure out
> which offered better courses or had a better faculty would be WAY beyond my
> capabilities.

I work in a building where most have at least a graduate degree and we have hired many former professors. The former professors have provided me with a lot of great information about how college departments work, the relative benefits of various schools, trends in academia and in the workplace and how to get things done.

I get to talk to hiring managers and they tell me the specific schools they look for to get specialists. They provide me with access to their engineers to talk to them about schools that we are interested in.

If I have a question about a particular school, I can ask around to see if someone went there and ask them a question. They may be able to answer the question or send an email or make a phone call to get the question answered. My former college professor coworkers seem to keep their networks, both industry and other maintained.

[jonri]

Do any of us doubt that Jackie O coached JFK Jr until he could finally (third time) pass that bar exam?

Yes, I do. She may have hired someone to help him, but I don't think Jackie --who, as far as I know, had no special interest in law--tried to coach her son herself.

[poetgrl]

This thread has become pretty interesting. As I was reading (Maybe it was the name Kennedy), it occured to me that many wealthy people have always been able to hire people to do the "helicoptering...." ie hiring tutors...or the way student athletes are academically hand-held through college programs, with special assistance and people there to advocate with professors and to clarify what the athletes may need clarified.

When a D1 athlete (say basketball) is making the decision to stay or leave, the good coaches mentor them through it and speak to the professional coaches to "see" where in the draft these young men will be picked so that a choice can be made as to whether it is worth it, and the very best universities will then also make it possible for these athletes to return over the course of the summers to finish thier degree.

A lot of groups have had a massive edge, look at test prep, personal coaching, etc....which is what a lot of middle class parents are attempting to level the playing field with what is called helicoptering.

But, realisitically? I think Helicoptering should be a term reserved for parents who are forcing the "help" on thier kids and not for parents who are simply giving advice and doing some of the overwhelming "how do i even get started" grunt work. When a woman has a child for the first time, her mother might show up to help out for the first few weeks, and then her mother-in-law, as she learns how to manage. Is that helicoptering or just support. For me, I was grateful for that support, even if I was a self-supporting adult at the time. FWIW

[missypie]

If its your ''financial investment" you are worried about, why are you investing in an expensive college education for a child who can't actually do some secretarial work on their own?

My son has Asperger's and is very ADD. We all knew that he needed a small school environment, our state has no small school public options, thus the "expensive" part. I wondered a lot about whether he could make it at school, but so far so good. In fact, I'm pretty sure he's doing better away at school than if he was living at home and attending the local CC. At school, he has to keep track of one thing: school. At home it was school, ECs, church, work. At school, he's in a tiny dorm room with few distractions. At home, 1,000,001 distractions. So if I had to do some secretarial work to get him to that school, with that merit aid package, so he'd have a good chance at succeeding at college, so be it.

[atomom]

"Researching graduate programs for your kid? Unless you're talking about researching something like a master's in education for a kid who has not yet taken any education courses, I don't see why a parent would think himself/herself more capable of determining how good a program is than a student is."

Let me explain how I researched programs for S--through a professional organization website, I found a list of grad programs in the field (these programs can be hard to identify because they are listed under different departments in different schools). I have time to go through the details on each program and eliminate 3/4 of them--S doesn't have the right degree to get into that one, that one has poor financial aid, that one looks great, but the research is not in S's area of interest, etc. I emailed S links to the ones that looked good according to his criteria. I'm doing it as a favor to help him save time--he can look at 10 programs, not 40. I enjoy doing this kind of work. Is S capable of doing this himself? Absolutely--but I have more free time now, so that is my gift to him.
I think parents who have gone to grad school know a thing or two and can point out what to look for.

[Kei-o-lei]

'rentof2 said: "It's all just about criticizing other people."

Way to stick to your position :-)

I see a lot of discussion on this thread that has very little to do with criticizing others, that has to do with striking the right (and different) balances for different kids.

One thing that isn’t on the syllabus at college is "learn how to negotiate through a bureaucracy." It's taught experientially, which is why it's a good idea for parents to be in an "advise the student" mode when their kids are dealing with issues like roommate incompatibilities, which courses to take, etc. I guess there is some hypothetical extreme point at which I would intervene directly with the school on behalf of my child, but my default - and ALL parents' default - should be to have the kid be the lead for dealing with these issues.

And that's not the same thing as getting advice; the critical thing is who has the lead. DD has a roommate who insists on having sex in the room whenever she wants and DD doesn't like it? It's DD's job to take the lead to resolve that issue: talk with roommate; talk with RA ; talk with housing office; request a transfer, whatever. It's not the parent's job to take the lead away from the kid and solve the problem for her. It's who has the lead that matters.

When my DD was at the initial orientation at a large flagship state school they had the kids sit in reserved rows in front of the ~1000 person auditorium, with parents in the back . . .for a very specific reason. About 10 minutes into this kickoff orientation event they had the kids stand up and leave the room, telling the parents that they will next see their kids the following day when class selection. You could hear the helicopter engines whirring furiously in the room as parents realized - some very anxiously - that their kids were going out without them. I'd say about 10- -15% immediately went into text mode on their cell phones before the kids left the room, and my guess is that they weren't using them to tell Aunt Maude that DS or DD was finally off to college . . . they were trying to get in touch with their kids. Nothing to do with their kid's needs. Incapable of letting them go. Great example of anxious over-parenting.

Kei

P.S. For those - like geomom - who see it so cynically, what I hear from higher ed friends is that schools are making bureaucratic changes - staff assignments, specific roles and responsibiliites - specifically to deal with over-involved parents. In other words, the institutions themselves are changing their job practices in responses to specific changes in parental behavior. On example: at orientation at a small college nearby one student was hired ONLY to identify and cull out parents that were infiltrating the student-only portions of the orientation sessions, kind of like a drover in a cattle drive. That isn't being done for either of the reasons ID'd by geomom earlier. Helicoptering is real!!

[Hanna]

"How do you know that 99% of applicants handle the application process without help?"

Did you read my whole post? I stressed that I still (age 34) talk to my parents before I make a big decision like accepting a job. The issue isn't whether students handle it without discussing it with their parents; the issue is whether the parent is on the phone calling on the student's behalf. That's the kind of "help" that's totally inappropriate and makes the student look like a fool....even if their parents are big shots or they have personal assistants at age 20. I know that 99% are handling their communication with the school themselves because I and my colleagues were answering the phone.

Natalie Portman's personal assistant was not calling the Harvard admissions office to arrange her interview. When I answered the phone there, I took a call about logistics from Ivanka Trump. She's no dummy. The student needs to make that call, and most of them know that, rich and famous included. The only exception I can think of is the Secret Service. If they're bringing a protectee on campus, they make the arrangements. Otherwise, your "people" should be behind the scenes.

[poetgrl]

When my D had the swine flu, she had a situation where she was denied the right to have a midterm make-up and just had to take the zero and substitute the final for that grade. At the time she was really sick and in pain and very upset. Had she been in Jr. High, I think I would have actually called the school. Being in college I just told her that if she wanted to go to the administration I was sure she could get something done about it, but at the moment I thought she ought to stay in bed.

A freind said I should call the school since this could endanger other students--students who were sick did chooose to go and take the test, infecting, I'm sure, others. I laughed at the idea that I would call the University. "Are you kidding me?"

Calling would have been helicoptering, imho. Sending soup was mothering.

[BCEagle91]

> When my DD was at the initial orientation at a large flagship state school they
> had the kids sit in reserved rows in front of the ~1000 person auditorium,
> with parents in the back . . .for a very specific reason. About 10 minutes into
> this kickoff orientation event they had the kids stand up and leave the room,
> telling the parents that they will next see their kids the following day when
> class selection. You could hear the helicopter engines whirring furiously in the
> room as parents realized - some very anxiously - that their kids were going
> out without them. I'd say about 10- -15% immediately went into text mode
> on their cell phones before the kids left the room, and my guess is that they
> weren't using them to tell Aunt Maude that DS or DD was finally off to college

I just dropped off our son for orientation. I got a call a few hours later. The advisors
didn't know what to do with him because he had so many dual-enrollment courses
coming in. I had already studied the major requirements and the course offerings
matrix and just told him what to sign up for.

He's been incredibly busy this semester. He has three upper-level courses with
constant problem sets, homework, labs, quizzes, etc. and has had a busy time
at his part-time job tutoring other kids with mid-term materials and labs. I put
together a list with his options for Spring 2010. There were three courses that
he had to take; one was a combination gen-ed requirement with about a dozen
different options or 100 different options if taken as two courses. I showed him
the course and he asked for a list of options. I pulled up the options in a second
and told him that all of the other courses were on the other campus or in areas
that he wasn't interested in. He took a quick look and concurred. He has to take
a fourth course this spring and I gave him a list of options and my recommendation
based on my inside industry knowledge. He's going to talk to the professors and
decide.

He's somewhat burned out right now and I suggested that he take only 13 credits
in the Spring. He has two semesters to complete 17 credits so he can take it easy
going forward.

My wife makes me breakfast and lunch to take to the office every day. I could make
it myself or buy it but it's nice to have the personal touch.

[BCEagle91]

> Did you read my whole post?

I asked a simple question.

> I stressed that I still (age 34) talk to my parents before I make a big decision like
> accepting a job.

I never did that with jobs. I guess it's nice to have parents.

> The issue isn't whether students handle it without discussing it with their parents;
> the issue is whether the parent is on the phone calling on the student's behalf.

I did visit a son's professor to discuss giving him an incomplete for the semester. My son was in the hospital at the time.

> That's the kind of "help" that's totally inappropriate and makes the student look
> like a fool....even if their parents are big shots or they have personal assistants
> at age 20. I know that 99% are handling their communication with the school
> themselves because I and my colleagues were answering the phone.

It appears that you pulled that number out of your ***.

"I know" is just your subjective opinion.

> Natalie Portman's personal assistant was not calling the Harvard admissions
> office to arrange her interview. When I answered the phone there, I took a
> call about logistics from Ivanka Trump. She's no dummy. The student needs to
> make that call, and most of them know that, rich and famous included. The only
> exception I can think of is the Secret Service. If they're bringing a protectee on
> campus, they make the arrangements. Otherwise, your "people" should be behind
> the scenes.

I guess you haven't read any articles about the University of Illinois.