Overexaggerated Importance?

[mantori.suzuki]

A vote here for "never asked for them, never been asked for them." If they're recent, I can see the relevance. If they're ancient, it seems misguided.

[BunsenBurner]

I don't even remember if anyone ever asked me about my GRE scores!!! Add me to the pile of "never been asked about her standardized test scores".

[coureur]

I recall reading in an article in Time magazine, back when John Sununu was White House Chief of Staff, that Mr. Sununu would regularly inform people that he had scored a perfect 1600 on his SAT back in the day. Perhaps HE is the sort of boss who would ask SAT scores from job applicants.

[calmom]

Calmom, did the top rated college counselor who predicted rejection for your daughter at Barnard ever follow up with after acceptance? Did s/he learn (or concede learning something new) from your daughter's experience, or was it dismissed as a fluke?

I followed up be letting her know of my daughter's results. i don't remember what she said -- it was polite, face-saving, and certainly not an admission. I certainly didn't press the matter.

The ONLY reason I keep harping on the point is because there are so many students and parents on CC who probably get discouraged by what I feel is a somewhat skewed, stats-obsessed viewpoint that predominates at CC. I think the biggest help for me through my daughter's process was some kid a year earlier who had gotten into an Ivy or equivalent despite an SAT that was 100 points below whatever she was told she needed - and she simply posted something along the lines of, 'you can't get in if you don't apply'.

I did get very good advice on college admissions from a different source -- an individual named Peter Van Buskirk who is the author of a book called Winning the College Admission Game. I don't think he works privately with individual students -- instead, he gives workshops for parents and high school students, and I met him through a workshop given at my daughter's high school -- he also gives workshops geared to college counselors. He is a dynamic and entertaining speaker, and his workshops include some group role playing, where everyone is given a set of fictional college applications to review and the group works together to make an admission decision. I think I was pretty well informed about the process before that workshop, but I gained a lot of insight after the workshop. It also was a big motivator for both me and my daughter -- because rather than the focus on "stats" that so dominates this board, he focused on strategy -- how to select appropriate colleges, how to figure out what that college may be looking for in students, how to frame an application to highlight a student in a way that will be attractive to the college.

I think too many applicants fail to appreciate that the college has its own agenda and goals. They see at as a selection process in which the college is making a judgment about their individual qualifications, like some sort of academic beauty contest. A rejection is taken to mean that the student wasn't good enough, accepted students are assumed to be better qualified than waitlisted students. And that's what results in all the angst when a student with better stats is rejected and learns that a different student with lesser stats, perhaps from their same high school, gets accepted.

But colleges have an agenda of their own to fill. Its more like a casting call than a competition. They aren't looking for the 'best' students, they are looking for a wide variety of students to fill a whole set of different 'roles'. The "roles" may be flexible, but depending on the institutional priorities and the way the class is shaping up, an applicant become attractive to the extent that she gives the college something they want or need. So the really important part of a college application is NOT a recitation of the student's attributes, but rather information that shows what a given student has to offer the college -- and whether or not the college needs or wants what that student offers.

Colleges like Wellesley do not "need" students with high SAT scores -- they have plenty of applicants with top scores. But they do need students who will excel in each of their different academic departments, they do need athletes and artists and student leaders. Some of the posters here have suggested that Wellesley really likes intense, overachieving, driven women. If so, the student with strong "leadership" credentials (Student Body president, active in community organizations, etc.) might have an an advantage over an introverted student with a higher GPA and better test scores. (I put "if" and 'might" because I really have never looked into what Wellesley actually wants -- I'm just relying on other posts).

[lizmane]

But I am quite sure that the time my daughter spent in high school on life was a far better use of her time than test prep. If there are employers who are dumb enough to reject a person with her strong organizational skills, people skills, and initiative, in favor of someone with a higher test score.... that's too bad for those employers.

This is quite a holier than thou attitude. Can we please get off the high horse? Nobody is locking their kids up in an attic and do nothing but providing test prep tutoring.

If you don't think test prep is not the right thing for your kids, don't do it. No reason to pass judgment on other parents for providing needed help for their kids for a limited amount of time (probably at most a few months, a few hours a week tops)

[mom2sons]

I've become mesmerized looking at Naviance scattergrams once I found out about them on CC and discovered some of the published guest passwords. It's really clear from these graphs if SAT and/or GPA is very important or not at a school. Some schools have a clear trend & cut-offs, some rely heavily on SAT and not GPA, and others rely on SAT. Many highly selective schools seem like a shot gun; so clearly, "fit" and/or specific talents and interests are more important.

From the schools I've looked at, the graphs generally confirm what the colleges self-report on the common dataset about what's very important, important, etc. in the admissions process. Clearly, for many selective schools, SAT is just one small piece of the puzzle.

I haven't looked at scattergrams for Wellesley (I have 2 sons!)

[coureur]

Calmom vs. Blossom

One of the more interesting match-ups in recent CC memory. Both are very articulate and very opinionated. I predict a draw or at least no clear knock-out winner.

[calmom]

No reason to pass judgment

How is my statement about what I feel about my daughter "passing judgment" on others?

[mantori.suzuki]

What a racist thing to say.

[ihs76]

^^ huh? Not sure what you're referring to?

To grossly paraphrase Marilyn Monroe: You can fall in love with any guy. It sure doesn't hurt if he's a millionaire.

You can get accepted with low scores, but it sure doesn't hurt if they're high.

DS fell madly in love, at a very gut check 'fit' level, with a school that runs one of the highest scores in the country. He realized that to be competitive, he had to have high scores, and put in the time to (mostly) get himself there.

[Mamalumper]

You really need to put yourself in the mind of an admissions officer. They have very little time to review every application the way it deserves to be looked at, especially at the very selective colleges. The first step for them from what I understand is looking at your GPA and course rigor. If you went to a competitive HS and challenged yourself with success they are more likely to overlook a less than stellar SAT result. Some people are just not great test takers. Also it would depend on who else from your high school is applying and how you stack up against them. I believe I read somewhere that they really try to be consistent. I believe that if you are in the range of SAT scores given on the schools website that would mean that you are considerable and that gives you as good a chance as any. The valedictorian at my sons school has lower SAT scores than many of the other students in the top 10% of the high school. I find it hard to believe they would exclude her given her consistent academic success. I think they are more apt to exclude someone with high SAT's and low grades as a slacker. Just my opinion. Don't sweat it, it is "spilt milk" as they say.

[Pizzagirl]

A vote here for "never asked for them, never been asked for them." If they're recent, I can see the relevance. If they're ancient, it seems misguided.

Me neither.
I did have a manager who asked me, repeatedly and in front of other people, what I had gotten on my GMAT's. (He did the same to others, not just me.) I just looked at him as though he were cross-eyed. How unbelievably rude and tacky of him to ask. And everyone I worked with shared that opinion and couldn't believe that he was badgering us.

Finally I told him "Good enough to get me into Kellogg!" (which was, at the time, the #1 ranked b-school in the country) and that shut him up.

My experience is that you put FAR more stock in the person sitting across the table from you and how he or she comes across in an interview (energetic? determined? problem-solver? easy to get along with? team player? strategic?) than in having them recite their scores.

[bovertine]

I wasn't offended since my current employer asks everyone their scores so I know the drill.

OF course, when I said I would "walk out" that was a little bit of rhetorical hyperbole. I wouldn't be offended really either, and of course I'd give the results if I needed the job. I would probably just be surprised - but not that surprised. I've been asked truly really bizarre things in interviews before, at least there is some rationale in asking for a test score.

[momofthreeboys]

I didn't go to Kellogg for my MBA (but got in way back when) couldn't afford it...but I love that answer. Honestly I do not remember my SAT scores, do not remember my GMAT score, LSAT score and do not remember my GRE scores. I really, really don't remember. I'd probably fall on the floor in hysterical laughter if someone asked me about some 30+ year ago test scores, then pick my self up and say adios. Anyway, sorry to go off topic.