2kidsnoanswers

I'd like to back Willem up on this, as a parent. It seems that all of the above are available for those intent on seeking them out any *any* high school....public school in a wealthy/middle class/poor area, private day school, boarding school. Each student decides what is for them and what is not. There in no such thing as a perfectly safe bubble. The good news is that, at least as far as I can tell, each kid's choices are respected among their peers in the boarding environment. Those that abuse the rules are well aware of what they are doing, and do get caught on a regular basis.

girlgeekmom

A quick note on the younger (i.e. 8th and 9th grade) student dorms at Groton. They are not "barracks-style" but they ARE quite a bit different from other dorms in that the walls between rooms (mostly doubles) do not go all the way to the ceiling. They stop at about 6 1/2 feet, iirc from our tour. The rooms themselves are new and well appointed. That said, we definitely felt it was a downside. Friends we know who visited LOVED the feeling -- they said it seemed "private yet not isolated".

Another downside to Groton was that younger students were not permitted in the library for study hall. Instead, they were corralled into this massive "classroom" - complete with desks in what passed for rows, and chaos. It seemed counterintuitive to the concept of supervised quiet study.

LakeClouds

Groton seemed very stiff - an example is the "do not walk on the green" rule. I also thought the old study room with the built in wooden desks was not a good system - very old fashioned and the room seemed noisy which for some students would be problem if they need quiet to concentrate. The dorms have the non-floor to ceiling walls which is odd - not sure the point of it. Wouldn't say it's a barracks however.

girlgeekmom

According to the admissions folks at Groton and our tour tour guide, the idea of the 3/4 walls is so that younger students don't feel isolated, while maintaining some measure of privacy. I recall they mentioned some research or "proven theory," but since it was such a turn-off for us, I frankly did not pay it much attention.

We also felt the general atmosphere was rigid, and the attitude of the administration was more punitive, for want of a better word, than at any other school we visited except perhaps Kent. For example, the penalty for getting a certain number of demerits for various infractions was, we were informed, to be given manual labor in view of the student body (such as raking leaves or carting trash). "That," according to the AO with whom we met, "will teach a kid to appreciate the value of a prep school education..."

That said, for families or kids who like a highly structured environment, Groton may be nirvana. It simply wasn't for us.

ops

Don't have to get demerits to take out the trash, rake leaves, wash dishes or any thing else I need help with around the house. I think if you ask, you'll find similar consequences at almost all the schools for multiple minor infractions otherwise what would you have them do? Its not so much structured environment as consequences for your actions or lack thereof.

girlgeekmom

Ops, it's not the "structured environment" or the consequences for misdeeds but the FOCUS on demerits and punishment that we noted during our tours of Groton and Kent, which was not so "top of mind" at any of the dozen other schools we visited during our fairly exhaustive search to find the right fit. That type of focus led us to believe that there were likely more students who needed "reminding" and "consequences" in order to toe the line, as it were, rather than a preponderance of more self-directed or self-motivated students. Our dd's school has weekly dorm chores and daily rules and regs, but the culture is one of expectation to succeed in meeting expectations, including dorm discussions on how chores will be dealt with by each of the residents, rather than a punitive expectation that says, "you'd better do this or X will be the consequence."

Again, for some parents and kids, the idea of a system Like Groton's or Kent's, with its more visible "structure" may be a plus, a needed step in developing self control and self direction. For our student, who had bought into the social contract early on, it would have been, for want of a better word, demoralizing. She preferred the "virtuous cycle" approach rather than the "carrot and (reversible) stick" approach.

And no, I did not see such consequences as raking leaves or other punishments that (as the AO not only admitted, but declared with some pride) are intended to publicly humiliate. Usually the consequences involve loss of privileges, early hours, or other, non-shaming disincentives to break the rules.

ops

I'll admit the AO remarks are discouraging or a poor choice of words, which we are all guilty of at times, especially me. I can't imagine the intention is ever to publicly humiliate and if it is, then there is an issue. Every school deals with minor discipline matters somewhat differently and the penalties varies depending upon severity and quantity of demerits obtained over a period of time. Groton is a fantastic school and the kids there do know right from wrong but being teenagers they'll push the envelope. The minor offenses they always think they can get away with and not just at Groton. I don't understand why Groton would focus on demerits and punishment, that is unfortunate. A good catch on your part if you sense an environment of faculty versus the students.

PelicanDad

I took the comments to contrast to other schools, where the attitude is that *everybody* does some kind of menial labor for the community, it's part of the school ethos, and everyone already sees all of their friends and classmates in these roles, so there's nothing shameful about it.

To make an explicit statement that part of a punishment system is not only restitutional work, but also a kind of humiliation carried out in public, is certainly "old school."

girlgeekmom

Ah, ops, I think you nailed it with your last statement. We visited Groton having heard some really wonderful things about it, and I'm sure they're all true. And the kids seemed as enthusiastic and engaged as at any of the other schools we visited. But it definitely had an air of, if not "faculty vs. students," then certainly a "top-down" discipline style, if you will.

And as you noted that each school deals with minor (and even major) discipline matters somewhat differently, so each student responds differently to the various styles out there—and each parent, too.

To reflect back to the OP and the first response, from mountainhiker, one person's "plus" can definitely be another person's "minus."

SevenDad

To girlgeekmom's last point, we found Groton's half-height dorm walls and "school room" study hall positively charming in a very "old school" way.

leanid

Yes, and one parent's "student" is another parent's 'child'...or is that too "old school" for you geekmom?

Periwinkle

I feel the need to speak up. At St. Mark's there are work details. Students can be assigned to work details for certain disciplinary infractions, which are spelled out in the school's handbook. (Available under the "About" tab on the website. Last item on the drop-down list.) "Weekend Work Detail" is scheduled on weekends. There are other penalties, such as being restricted to campus or the dorms, not being allowed to leave campus on weekends, or losing leadership positions. The school reworked the whole system recently, so refer to the online document for all the details.

The SDC (Student Disciplinary Committee) hears major school rule violations. It's composed of four faculty members and five students (if I've counted the details in the handbook correctly.) The Head of School may attend the hearings. This committee can recommend penalties to the head. Very often, the students know more of a peer's misdeeds than the faculty.

I've spent some time Googling. I've found similar systems of penalties at Taft, Deerfield, Andover, Middlesex... I'm certain I can find more, because it's necessary for boarding schools to have some penalties for misbehavior short of suspending or expelling a student. I think a formal system of discipline is a good thing. Boarding schools are communities. There must be a method for a school to mete out consequences for misbehavior.

I recommend any parent considering boarding schools make an extra effort to read a school's handbook before sending their child away. The handbooks are usually available on the website. The schools may differ on details. Is the DC composed of faculty, are there students on the committee, can the students vote on decisions? Are there means to expiate minor infractions, or is the system set up to warn once or twice before suspension or expulsion?

In all the schools we visited, an open flame in the dorm will get you expelled. Locked doors are not permitted while students are in them. There are good reasons for the rules, but make certain you can live with them before sending your children away.

leanid

Oh, how could you Periwinkle?! My student is too enamored of learning for learning's sake to EVER allow the - gasp - baser impulses of adolescence to bend, let alone break, ANY of those unfortunate rules...oh dear, oh dear... but I suppose there are some of less than sterling quality who would...

ops

On a lighter note, a few years ago my wife and I received a letter in the Spring with 5 weeks to go before Summer break. The letter was from the Dean of Students to advise if ops jr. receives 3 more demerits that he would be placed on probation then followed by a DC hearing if need be. We were caught totally by surprise with all of this. We promptly proceeded to draft a letter in response, this being the first having been made aware of the alleged record breaking number of demerits in recent school history. All within 15 minutes of receiving the letter, digesting the contents and preparing our reply did we receive a call from the Form Dean. He proceeded to apologize profusely for failing to notify us of what had been transpiring over the school year. The infractions were so minute that he and ops jr's Advisor never gave them a second thought. Of course, ops jr never told us, in fact everything was "wonderful". But, there was an accumulation of over 65 demerits, all small infractions but infractions none the less. There was nothing serious just a bunch of little no-no's. No sooner did we hang up with him did ops jr's Advisor call, also to apologize profusely for the same reason the Form Dean had called. We all agreed that with 6 more demerits the hammer would fall. We finished the year with 3 additional demerits. That's the lighter side, there is a dark side. Once in awhile the schools do get a real bad apple. He or she may have been suspended once already but it enables the school within the rules to dismiss the kid. So when you hear of a kid getting bounced for one thing, the odds are there's whole list of other minor infractions.

girlgeekmom

@Leanid, your snarky posts do nothing to further this conversation. I use "student" and "child" interchangeably in my posts, and consider myself fairly "old school," for what it's worth. However, the fact that we are all participating in an ONLINE forum makes us ALL something less than "old school."

@Periwinkle, thanks for the further clarification and expansion. I was not questioning the need for consequences, rather the form they take AND the attitude we received from the AO at Groton, which rather took us aback.

For every school with a work-based approach to discipline (in addition, perhaps, to a restriction of privileges), there is at least one other with a purely restriction-based; in some cases the latter schools also have fewer "strikes" to more severe disciplinary action. Our tour guide at Hotchkiss, for example, talked about the "$40K sip" -- the students' nickname for H's zero-tolerance policy on drinking. PEA has a different approach to slip-ups of the substance nature, and is, at least on paper, somewhat more willing to work with students — dependent on a variety of factors, which are outlined quite clearly in the student handbook.

I *absolutely* agree with you that parents should really read the student handbooks of schools they and their children are considering. They provide insights into student life, school culture, and the all-important disciplinary process. Because even darling angels—as leanid seems to think I consider my student, er, child—can make costly mistakes, as other parents on these forums can attest.

BTW, at Emma an open flame ANYwhere in the school—indoors or out—will get you instantly expelled, as well—no matter how stellar your prior record. Our dd shared a story by her houseparent of stopping into a senior girl's room, seeing what appeared to be lit candles, and resisting the urge to dive (cue slow-motion sound effects and a screaming "Nooooooooooo!) toward the offending pillars as she saw this remarkable student's 4-years literally go down in flames. Turned out they were wax LED "candles." Houseparent sigh of relief, and a policy instituted to show dorm staff your LED candles if you happen to have any in your room ;-)