What's the knock on these schools? - Page 3

leanid · 11-16-2012, 03:13 PM

Happy to oblige. By the way, I believe the term is 'go UP in flames' as oppsed to "down".

I assume that means no smoking at Emma either, huh? Oh, wait, car lighters! -- oh, not, they've disappeared along with ashtrays...tsk tsk.

Periwinkle · 11-16-2012, 04:30 PM

"in some cases the latter schools also have fewer "strikes" to more severe disciplinary action"

That does seem to be true for some schools. Now, as I don't have children at those schools, there could be a system which warns kids when they're getting close to the edge. It's one thing to read the handbook, it's another to know how a system is implemented in practice. I prefer systems which don't assume students will always know what to do.

girlgeekmom, I can't know how the AO meant her comment to be taken. However, I said before that students know more about what happens than the adults. Having a work detail for smaller infractions which violate community expectations could be kinder than leaving discipline to the kids. I found an interview with Shamus Khan about St. Paul's this afternoon, while trying to refresh my memory about seated meals:

Freakonomics Privilege: How Society’s Elite Are Made

Quote:

Venkatesh: The dormitories at St Paul’s School don’t have locks on the doors. Why is that? Is there a particular attitude towards crime and social order that is part of the socialization of elite youth at the school?
Khan: When I was a student at St. Paul’s, one of the first things I learned was NEVER to knock on a fellow dorm mate’s door. Why? Because if someone knocks on your door you know it’s a teacher, and if you’re doing something you’re not supposed to be doing, you should stop right away. But beyond that, not having locks conveys just how much trust and community there is at a place like St. Paul’s. The school works hard to be like a family. And families don’t put locks on their doors; they trust one another. This is a really powerful idea. It’s something admirable that the school tries to instill in its students. And it creates a deep bond between the students, along with the suggestion that those in your family (or class) can be trusted. More interestingly still, when things do start disappearing in a dorm (usually small items — like candy bars, pizza, or other food), it’s rare that the faculty will get involved. Students police one another. If they figure out who’s stealing, they socially isolate that person — which in a small high school of around 500 kids is incredibly painful. External authority doesn’t really get invoked. You could certainly think about this as part of the way that elites learn to subject themselves to their own rules, and to avoid external imposition of rules upon them.

(emphasis added)

MBVLoveless · 11-17-2012, 08:51 PM

Lawrenceville is extremely relaxed. I had my first snowball fight with a faculty member at 7 in the evening. Coming from a place that never sees snow, I know I won't ever forget this experience

.

girlgeekmom · 11-17-2012, 11:11 PM

@leanid, well, I was thinking, UP in SMOKE, but DOWN in flames (Like an airplane going in...), but I see that UP in flames is also an idiom that would certainly be appropriate to the situation.

@periwinkle, I can't "know" how the AO intended her comment but I'm reasonably good at reading affect. She clearly was proud of what she considered an "effective" method of punishment, and she clearly recognized the public humiliation value of said punishment (why else would you say, archly, that performing manual labor in sight of your peers will "teach you to appreciate the value of your prep school education"?).

As for the comment by Khan about students policing each other, I don't see that as particularly unkind. Having attended a Quaker college with self government, it seems a civil way to run a community. While I agree being isolated socially might be "extremely painful", as Khan notes, being stolen from is also painful, and in addition makes the victim of the theft feel less trusting, less safe in his or her community, and personally violated.

Unlike Khan, I do not see self-governance or dealing with problems "within the nest" as unique to "social elites." I do think that, taken to extremes, the unwillingness to have oversight from outside authorities, or the hubristic idea that "we can take care of it" if "IT" is a serious crime or serious societal ill, can lead to seriously flawed situations. Penn State comes to mind.

Periwinkle · 11-18-2012, 12:58 PM

Could we leave Penn State out of the discussion, please?

As for social isolation, I think you underestimate the power of shunning in an isolated community. St. Paul's is 100% boarding. The school is the only source of teen friendship for the boarders. A day student can cultivate friendships with peers who are not enrolled at the same school. A boarder cannot.

baystateresident · 11-18-2012, 02:08 PM

Work duty, whether scheduled for everyone or doled out as punishment, is a common feature of east coast boarding schools. For some of the students, it may be the first time they have ever held a rake, or trowel or sponge in their hands, and they take a certain amount of pride in it. My kids still talk fondly of their jobs and the relationships they formed with the kitchen staff and grounds crew.

girlgeekmom · 11-18-2012, 03:27 PM

Okay, can we get back to the OP -- the request was about "knocks" for schools. The AO's touting of a punitive approach/attitude toward physical labor WAS a "knock" for our impression of Groton. YMMV.

Regarding social isolation, whether a school is 100% boarding or less, most boarders are going to have few options for cultivating friendships with peers who are not enrolled at the same school.

IN GENERAL, I believe that the consequences for stealing in a closed community need to be severe. Think about a school where dorm-room doors are expected or required to be UNlocked. Given the typical student desire not to "rat" on one's peers, then a certain amount of self-policing is to be expected. And severe consequences for severe actions are to be expected, as well. So if "social isolation" makes a student who has stolen from another student feel bad, I fear I have little sympathy.

I'll note also that the Khan quote was specifically about stealing. Theft or fear of theft is a quick route to the destruction of community through distrust and wariness. Isolating the cause of such destruction seems apt.