wilmadelin

When I started looking at colleges two years ago, Princeton and Yale were my two "reach" targets and come April I found myself blessed with admission to both but cursed with the wrenching choice between them. Though I never applied to Harvard, I imagine in the end I might have chosen Harvard over Princeton, for much the same reasons I ultimately chose Yale in my actual circumstances. Basically, like some other posters above mentioned, I just found Yale's campus, if not necessarily more beautiful, more energetic and the undergraduate vibe just more vivaciously intellectual. After several visits to each school, I liked the dining hall conversations with students better at Yale.

When I was doing my research, I stumbled into a couple of articles in the Daily Princetonian that capture my impressions quite succinctly. Both are by a well-known Princeton professor:

Tiger? Bulldog? Tiger? - The Daily Princetonian

On reflecting on the differences between Yale and Princeton, he admits he likes Yale's "charged-up, intellectually tough atmosphere" where course sections "have more pop and sparkle than Princeton precepts". He call the energetic buzz of Yale's campus "exciting and bewildering." This is exactly what I felt and Yale has not disappointed.

On the topic of conversation, in the following article he bemoans the lack of good, intellectual conversation among undergraduates. He insists that " Princeton, as I have known it for 35 years, doesn’t foster this kind of conversation as effectively as many of its sister institutions."

The culture of conversation - The Daily Princetonian

Another quote is probably the most germane to this particular thread:


"Classrooms don’t exactly resound with brilliant repartee before sessions start or after they end. Years ago, a brilliant Princeton High School student explained to me why she had chosen Harvard over Princeton, after taking a number of excellent courses at the University in her teens. Hardly anyone at Princeton, she remarked, said anything in elevators or stairways or corridors on the way to class, or while seated and waiting for instructors. She couldn’t imagine going to college under such a pall of silence."

I suppose one might dismiss these comments as the musings of one aging, grumpy professor. But I personally noticed much of the same as I looked very carefully at Princeton.

gibby

@midatlmom -- As this thread is called "Choosing Harvard over Princeton" all comments made by me or others are going to have some sort of bias. Having one kid at Harvard (my daughter absolutely hates it there -- I wish she would transfer to Princeton if that would make her happier, but she's too caught up in the damn brand name to see reason) and one kid at Yale (my son loves it there and is having a wonderful experience), both of whom turned down Princeton, I can only tell you why they made the choices they did. No institution is perfect, not H, Y or P. It's all about finding the 'best fit', wherever that may be.

PtonGrad2000

These perceptions are always affected by prior bias, groupthink and stereotypes (all of which you see heavily represented here on the CC boards). I was accepted to Princeton, Harvard, Stanford, Yale and a number of other schools. I was very lucky. After having spoken with some graduates and professors, I decided against Stanford and focused on the other three. I came away with impressions very different from those formed by our Stanford and Yale friends posting above. During my multi-day visits to each of the institutions I came to feel that Princeton students and faculty were the most open and least comparison-obsessed of the three. I sat in on classes at each and found no differences whatsoever in the quality of intellectual discussion. I did get the impression that Yale students were more oriented toward the arts than their peers at the other two schools and that this affected the atmosphere on campus. I also found the built environment far more appealing at Princeton than at Harvard (where I chose to attend law school). I would disagree with some of the posters above regarding Yale. The campus is lovely and the area immediately surrounding it has been greatly improved since Yale began investing heavily in it by purchasing the neighboring commercial properties. Crime at the edges of the campus is, however, still a major issue. Cambridge also suffers from this but doesn’t seem to get the bad reviews that Yale gets, perhaps because it’s so close to Boston itself which is a very vibrant city. (I’ve posted my initial impressions of Princeton here: Of all the things I learned at Princeton, these are the most important.)

These four schools are among the top educational institutions in the world. (See the recent Times Higher Education International Reputational Survey here: Top Universities by Reputation 2012 Yale dropped a spot in that new survey but is still in the top ten and all four of these schools are at the top of the list, joined by MIT, Berkeley, Oxford, Cambridge, UCLA and the U. of Tokyo) A bad choice cannot be made among them for those lucky enough to have multiple options. Remember, however, that it is a tiny handful of students who actually do get multiple acceptances to all four or even three of the four and get the option of choosing among them. Plenty of students at each will have made the decision not to apply to one or more of the others and may not have based that decision on good evidence.

In the years following my own graduation, I learned that the year I applied and was accepted the split among Harvard, Princeton and Yale was about what was expected. For the students accepted to all three, about half chose Harvard while Princeton and Yale split the other half evenly. Princeton tended to get more of the math/science/engineering/economics crowd while Yale got more of the arts and humanities students but even that difference wasn’t great. More recently, the changes in the use of early programs has muddied the waters somewhat but after everything settles I suspect it will go back to looking a lot like it did when I applied. Harvard will continue to have a higher matriculation rate than either Princeton or Yale both of which will have about the same rate.

It will always be possible to find disgruntled graduates of any school. Here’s a funny story. I know of a local Princeton Schools Committee (these committees help interview applicants) that has as a member, a Harvard College graduate who attended Princeton for graduate school and came away with such strong feelings about the differences between the two institutions that he now interviews Princeton applicants and encourages them to attend if accepted!

njmom

PtonGrad2000, your thoughtful post made me even prouder that my son will be attending Princeton next fall. Thank you!

phantasmagoric

Is Grafton always the one to compare Princeton to other universities (and decry that Princeton isn't more like them)? I know he's written two articles about Stanford/Princeton, and now one on Yale.

I don't think intellectualism as people define it really exists. I seriously doubt that students at Chicago or Columbia (or any college that's supposedly "intellectual") sit around having profound conversations about Kant or classics. You won't find that at HYPS or any university, except in very small niches.

borodino

gibby-

Out of curiosity, what has turned your daughter off about her Harvard experience? What turns your son on about Yale? What do u see as the major differences btw the two schools?

gibby

borodino: I don't want to hijack this thread, so I'll send you a private email.

jkreine

Just at my high school, 14 of the 20 Princeton/Harvard admits have chosen Princeton over Harvard over the past 5 years. I would choose Princeton over Harvard if admitted to both. I reject the premise of this thread; I think it is far too general and does not account for many factors that contribute to college experience.

classicgirll

@gibby,
Do you mind sending me the PM as well?
I'm interested in learning about the differences between H/Y from someone who has a well-informed opinion on both schools.

Interficio

Gibby I would also appreciate the same pm

Sent from my LG-P509 using CC

lolToasty

I would like the pm too gibby...
why not make a thread? lol

ivymania

ME TOO gibby please

JamieBrown

gibby.. Go ahead and post the info here

gibby

My intent was NOT to hijack this thread, but as so many of you have asked, here goes. (Princeton students and parents, please feel free to compare the Princeton experience to my daughter and son's experience at Harvard and Yale.)
---------------------------
Harvard and Yale are both great schools. My daughter, who is a sophomore at Harvard, was rejected from Yale; my son, who is a freshman at Yale, was rejected from Harvard -- so each is playing the hand they were dealt. (Both were accepted to Princeton, but turned it down for their respective schools.)

First off, a couple of clear differences: Harvard's schedule is a lot more intense than Yale's. During the fall semester, Harvard students do not get a break from school -- except for Thursday and Friday of Thanksgiving week. Yale students, on the other hand, are off for 9 days, which includes the entire week of Thanksgiving. As a parent, that just seems a bit more humane. To a lesser extent, the same thing occurs in the spring semester: Harvard students have a week off for spring break; Yale students get two weeks off.

Harvard freshman live with, eat with, and socialize with other freshman. Harvard's freshman really don't socialize with upperclassmen, unless they make friends with older students through an extracurricular activity or a class.

At Yale, freshman eat with, and socialize with upperclassman in their colleges, so there is much more of a "big-sib, little-sib" atmosphere to the entire campus starting from your first day.

For our family, the "social tone" of Harvard and Yale was actually set on move-in day:

At Harvard, freshman move-in on the first day and there are virtually no other upperclass students to greet them or help them move-in. (Upperclass students move in several days later, but essentially sophomore, junior and senior students do not have contact with freshman.) At the end of move-in day at Harvard, parents say their goodbyes, and freshman go off to a series of orientation meetings.

At Yale, upperclass students move in on the first day and are required to help the freshmen move in on the third day. At Yale, our car was literally swarmed by 30 upperclass students on move-in day who unpacked our son's belongings and carried them up to his room. In the afternoon there was a student-parent reception at the master's house, followed by a dinner for freshman with the upperclass students in their colleges, and in the evening, there was a one huge party for the entire campus.

My daughter has a love/hate relationship with Harvard. She loves her classes, professors, extracurriculars (theater), and Cambridge . . . but she finds her fellow students a bit socially awkward, self-absorbed and competitive. (There's a reason Harvard's Administration instituted the freshman pledge -- for whatever reason, Harvard students just do not seem naturally kind to each other. See: Harvard College Introduces Pledge for Freshmen To Affirm Values | News | The Harvard Crimson.) My daughter also dislikes the party scene at Harvard, which is dominated by final clubs (see: Final Clubs: Safe Spaces to Party? | News | The Harvard Crimson.

When my daughter complains about Harvard, we say "Why don't you transfer somewhere else -- like Yale (or Princeton)?" Her response "What . . . and leave Harvard. I couldn't do that." She, like everyone else there, is caught up in the mystique of the place -- even if it means not having the greatest college experience.

Recently, I met a woman who graduated from Harvard about fifteen years ago. Given our daughter's feelings, I asked her how she enjoyed Harvard. Her response: "I hated it. And everyone I know hated it." "Why did you stay?" I asked. "Because, I will never again have to prove to anyone else that I'm smart." That seems to be my daughter's thinking, as well.

My son is having a much better time at Yale. He also loves his classes, professors and extracurriculars -- he played on Yale's Club Baseball team this fall and is planning to do the same this spring. He really loves his college (Yale University | Saybrook College) and has made many wonderful friends -- both inside and outside of the classroom. Although my son very much wanted to follow his sister off to Harvard, I don't think he would now trade places with her.

I hope all that helps.

gibby

talaria

Gibby, thanks for posting your insights about these colleges. I have wondered about the social climate as well, should my daughter get accepted to any of them. I will keep this in mind. S transferred after his freshman year due to similar concerns. He never looked back and will graduate in May.