Oregon_Dad

The problem with switching from the SAT to AP as the benchmark test for admissions is that it completely changes the rules of the game in mid-stream. The focus should be on academic rigor and getting a good education. My son's school tends to focus more on honors courses as opposed to AP, which allows his teachers to structure the curriculum around what they want to teach as opposed to teaching kids to do well on a standardized test. If some schools want several AP scores and others want SAT scores, then the kids have to prepare for more and more tests. The entire secondary education process becomes more about taking tests than learning if it is mandatory that a kid take up to 5 or 6 standardized tests by the end of his or her junior year.

I also strongly disagree with the assertion that people who spend thousands on Kaplan SAT prep courses have an advantage. An investment of $100 to $200 in good SAT prep books, coupled with practicing with "real" SAT questions from the College Board, in a self study program is the key. Any kid with intelligence, self motivation and discipline can overcome a disadvantaged economic situation with a quality self study regimen.

tokenadult

This old thread (still active) may be of interest:

Self-Studying APs: Improving Your App

The OP of the thread lived overseas when he was applying to college and enjoyed good admission results. He is now a student at MIT.

Colleges00701

Thats stupid...The SAT's measure aptitude or as I like to say "intelligence"....My opinonon may be biased because I scored a 2200 on the SATs, but have yet to make a 5 on an A.P.s test...Anyone can study for 6 months or longer, and get a 5 on the A.P. Test, but not very many kids can score high the sats(this doesn't hold true for cc)...

woami

I would think that tutoring for AP would be easier than tutoring for SAT. AP is just information and methods to memorize.

tokenadult

Really? Then why wouldn't everybody do that?

yummymango

^Because they're lazy.
At my school, a great majority of the kids in AP Calculus (AB and BC), AP Biology, AP Physics, and AP Government scores 5s on the exams. If I had actually studied instead of crammed in one night, I may have gotten a 5 instead of a 4 on my Environmental Science test (but I did get a 5 on AP Calculus!). The same applies to the more prestigious schools in my area. So many of the students there earn 5s that it's actually quite "normal." Some of my friends even take 8 AP exams in one year and manage to score 5s on all except one (AP Computer Science).

tokenadult

I suppose colleges want to screen students for diligence as well as for raw brainpower.

Colleges00701

^^^I see what you are saying, but I complety disagree with that...

Aren't colleges supposed to take the raw brain power and potential of students and MAKE the students work hard, MAKE the students push themselves to new levels, but MOTIVATING them....I need a college where the student body's drive for excellence as well as encouraging professors will serve as my motivation, MAKING me push myself....


In high school, its hard to become motivated about school and getting good grades because other kids in your classes don't work hard and the majority of kids tend to be very lazy.......

BeezMom

This is an interesting thread for many reasons. My D1 is a junior at NYU and..
1) as a training athlete, no time to take SAT prep courses. Her score: 2200
2) She was an AP Scholar of Distinction - and contrary to a previous poster, her 5's came in courses where she truly understood and loved the material. Memorization and spitback aren't her strongpoints so the fact and figure type tests were where she got her 3's.
3) She's had a very successful honors career at NYU. So has one of her HS classmates, who scored slightly higher on everything (GPA, AP Tests, SATs).

We live in an affluent area(even though we personally live in the less advantaged historic zone). Our public HS has many AP courses, and a lot of the families pay for Sylvan/Kaplan or the like. From what I've seen, the kids that were driven, and had a true passion (athletics, politics, performing arts) managed to do what they needed to on the SATs, AP Tests, and SATII's to get into the schools that fit them.
I really think the problem is with the "pay to play" outfits that encourage parents to plunk down big bucks to teach test strategy. Unfortunately, it doesn't matter what the colleges decide - those with the finances will find a way to pay for appropriate coaching. I've even heard of parents that have paid professionals to produce "THE" college essay.
So - how do the colleges find the "diamond in the rough"? I think that schools like NYU might by trying, but I'm not sure the solution is apparent just yet.
The closest indicator of collegiate success might be an hours log of how these kids spend their week, but how could anyone guarantee accuracy?

siserune

For a rather large fraction of those many-exam takers, taking a lot of tests is highly correlated with the ability to post high scores. They take more tests because they know that they can and will attain 5's on all or most of those tests. Very few people max out the SAT scale across the board, but doing so on five or seven AP's is rather common in the population that uses those exams as admissions credentials. The AP grading scale is quite forgiving, and getting a 5 is not (and is not intended as) a test of cognition, speed or accuracy. An intelligent and ambitious student, such as one of the 4000+ per year who take AP exams in or before the 9th grade, can essentially guarantee a 5 by preparing with due diligence. At least for that population of students, it is purely a question of time allocation.

idler

One problem with elevating the importance of APs in college admissions is that highschool curriculums are already dancing to the tune played by ETS and the College board: the most advanced classes in many highschools are pretty much test prep as it is. When the curriculum is prescribed by what's on the AP, and a teacher's success is based on how well the class does on the AP, you can bet that they are forced in to "teaching to the test" which is not good. Some of the best high schools have dropped AP courses, to give teachers and students more freedom.

So, ironically, this idea, to limit the power of the college board might instead increase it significantly.

siserune

Other than Scarsdale, which is hardly a typical public high school, the schools dropping AP are elite prep schools or have highly selected student populations. The list below at an anti-AP site contains nary a "normal" public school.

Welcome to Excellence without AP

tokenadult

And there certainly are students at no-AP-course high schools who nonetheless take AP tests. The College Board makes the AP testing system very open to students whose high schools don't offer AP-designated courses, to homeschoolers, and to self-studiers of all kinds.

I do see an assumption latent in several replies, that if a college (e.g., New York University) goes to a system of permitting applicants to submit test scores from any of several groups of permitted tests, that therefore all applicants at that college will necessarily have to submit AP test scores to be admitted. I wouldn't expect that to happen for ALL applicants, as long as the college genuinely considers scores from other kinds of tests. Similarly, at any college today (except perhaps a state university with a rigid admission formula based on numerical criteria) it is possible for the admission committee to pass over a high-scoring student

How do top scorers on tests fail to gain admission to top schools?

in favor of a student with somewhat lower test scores who has other desirable characteristics. It's generally a good idea to score well on standardized tests, and to me at least the test scores are persuasive evidence that the applicant has learned to read, do rather elementary math, and to gain knowledge about high-school-level subjects. But colleges that use the Common Application

https://www.commonapp.org/CommonApp/BecomeMember.aspx

(e.g., New York University)

https://www.commonapp.org/CommonApp/Members.aspx

promise to consider issues other than test scores when deciding on admission applications, and it is plain enough that they do.

widly05

It think it is ridiculous how people say the SAT and other Collegeboard tests are unfair. you want to know something, LIFE IS NOT FAIR. Stop complaining about it, and stop putting some action to make the system suite your needs.

openedskittles

My school only offers about a dozen AP tests, and almost all of the AP-crowd takes most of them.

By the end of junior year, an all-AP student would have about 5-7 exams depending on when they take required non-AP classes (a few are senior-only classes though). We have a few with all 5s, but it is pretty much impossible to be a national scholar or state scholar regardless of ability. We have a couple of national merit scholars and plenty of high SAT scores that make up for it.

If the SAT loses its status as a universal college readiness benchmark and AP tests take its place, students from my school would be unfairly barred from top schools, even if they are more than qualified. I'm sure this is the case in hundreds of schools.