vivianvolka

This is pretty much the age old question.

I just came off a discussion at my top choice school where someone asked if a 1900 score is "good enough" if you are an URM and applying. On the thread, someone posted that having a 700 on the Math SAT Section if you are a URM puts you in the Top 1% of URMs applying to the school. While in general, having a 700 puts you in the middle 50%.

Why is there such a score discrepancy between races? Everyone always says that it is economic, but that cannot be the main cause. Sure some kids get tutors, but 1) that can only help you so much, 2) most of the near perfect score kids I know self studied and 3) if it was economic, race wouldn't play a factor in admissions only money would.

I know that some studies have been done about first languages. In Chinese, for example, the number 22 would be said as "two tens plus two" which teaches kids addition and multiplication from an early age. But that still doesn't explain why some groups do so poorly in compared to others and why a 700 is "good enough" for someone, but not "good enough" for another.

Any ideas why? I always wondered this.

rspence

Different cultures have different standards of education...

SerenityJade

Often, it's not racial but environmental. I feel very odd saying this, but if you look at the people in my magnet school, there are two black kids and one who is half black and half white in my class of 26. Out of the applicants to the program from my high school, the mixed race girl was the only one who was not white. And applications were made available in every single math class with eligible students.

My school is 42% black and 52% white. Most of the black students don't care. They care more about friends and fun than school. They have no aspirations. And it's because of the area they live in. An area where nobody cares. The white kids from the same neighborhoods have the same problem. Few of them apply to college.

Essentially, it's the idea that non-white prospective students are rarer. Campuses want to create a diverse campus so a student with a 1900 who is black often has a far better chance than one who is white. For two students with the same qualifications, the black student would have a far better chance where one would think they'd be equal. (Though, if said student has a "black" name, he'll have a harder time in the job market.)

As for those who are hispanic, they typically have two issues. First, some have issues with English as they speak Spanish at home. This can lead to schools not challenging them enough because they don't realize they are smart in other non-English areas. One of my best friends has this kind of issue as she moved here last summer from Puerto Rico and the school couldn't immediately identify placement for her freshman year classes. She eventually was found to be smart and was encouraged to apply to and was later accepted at the magnet school program for math and science. Second, education may not be as important to their family. Or the family may think education is important but that family takes precedent over studies. Often, their problems are financial or familial. Like one of my friends graduated two years ago but last time I checked was still working at the Subway across the street from his mom's apartment because he couldn't afford college and wasn't able to leave his mother who speaks little English.



Also, I really hate the term "minority" when used to refer to race/ethnicity. I also oppose all attempts to use the concept to favor an individual or group. It's blatant racism that people have come to accept. And that is wrong.

niffler72

@serenityjade actually the term "minority" is politically correct because it refers to individuals who are not in the majority, and the majority of people in the united states are white. additionally, assuming that you're referring to affirmative action when you say that you oppose attempts to favor an individual or group, affirmative action is most beneficial to white people as 72% of affirmative action recipients are white women and its elimination would lead to the re-segregation of institutions of higher education which is more racist than any "concept to favor" (Ten myths about affirmative action | SocialistWorker.org). "For two students with the same qualifications, the black student would have a far better chance where one would think they'd be equal" is also an incredibly racist and privileged thing to say seeing as there has been no such case where two participants have distinctly unique profiles with no differentiating factor other than race. aside from SAT scores colleges factor in extracurricular activities, volunteer work, the essays you write for the admissions office, and so on and so forth.

to answer the original question, though, discrepancies between race and SAT score are usually based on lack of resources rather than standards of education. institutions where minorities are prevalent are often public and as the news frequently tells us, have their funding cut quite a lot. meanwhile white people often have better access (i.e. finances) to private schools which are better equipped to prepare students for standardized tests. the discrepancies basically are economic because poorer people tend to be minorities based on the fact that we don't actually live in a post-racial society.

Shrinkrap

" While in general, having a 700 puts you in the middle 50"

Give me a break. For what? Maybe math 2 subject test. I always wonder about that self selected group. This is why it's mistake to make public"data" that even high scoring folks can't seem to interpret. A few days ago someone wants numbers. Folks start posting stuff (mea culpa), next thing you know, it's being misrepresented, misinterpreted, AND taken as the basis for discussion.

For math reasoning, I'm seeing 700 is top 5 percent . Maybe a larger percentile for guys, smaller for women. Discrepencies among genders.....Wonder what THAT means?

rachelm57

While the tests have aimed to eliminate this. There are some question understanding issues. One example I saw was from an old SAT and required that the answerer knew what a member of a crew team was. This is, sterotypically associated people of white people of higher economic status, and others may not know the answer.

Shrinkrap

I was wrong. 700 is top 7 percent.

http://media.collegeboard.com/digita...Ranks-2012.pdf

vivianvolka

"meanwhile white people often have better access (i.e. finances) to private schools which are better equipped to prepare students for standardized tests."

Yes, that's what people generally keep saying. And I see where that argument comes from. After all, we all see that most kids in private schools and who have tutors are white. But if it was purely financial, why not just make AA about money instead of race? There has to be another factor.

vivianvolka

@Shrinkrap

"Give me a break. For what?"

For my top choice school that I am applying to. Having a 700 in SAT 1 math puts you in the middle 50 percent.

reeinaz

You have to be careful to not conflate the percentile of test takers with the percentile of accepted/enrolled students. Those are completely different numbers. Your 1% vs 50% example is comparing apples and oranges. Scoring in a certain percentile is not the same as the percentile of applicants/accepted/enrolled students with that score.

Shrinkrap

"For my top choice school that I am applying to. Having a 700 in SAT 1 math puts you in the middle 50 percent. "

I see. I thought you meant " in general, having a 700 puts you in the middle 50%." The difference is MUCH smaller with a more random pool of students. From what I can tell, the really big discrepancies may be primarily at the extreme ends.

I wonder how someone would know race specific admission statistics. What school? I imagine the N might be pretty small at many schools, so it would be harder to draw major conclusions.

I believe you might be quoting me from the Cornell thread, and that is not exactly what I wrote. I said 700 puts you in the top one percent of AA test takers, NOT URM's. I did not say it put you in the top 1 percent of AA student's applying to Cornell. I'm pretty sure the average URM does not apply to Cornell any more than any other average student. Just like 700 puts you in the top 7 percent overall, of white test takers, the same does not apply to Cornell's white applicant pool.

BTW, the same score puts you in a higher percentile for woman, but much lower for Asians.

vivianvolka

Africans Americans with 1800s on SATs

This is the thread that started the question.

Shrinkrap

That's what I thought. This is why I hesitate to post some kinds of information. Some people are going to misinterpret, or over interpret things, and then run with it.

Anyway, you should check pot the Race FAQ.

"Race" in College Admission FAQ & Discussion 10

SerenityJade

@niffler72
1) I don't give a care about political correctness. Political correctness is for politicians. I ain't gonna choose my words carefully to avoid hurting someone when it's not the way I'd say it normally.
2) What I said is not racist and privileged. It's truthful. For a campus looking for diversity, a non-white student with the same qualifications as a white student has a theoretical better chance. It doesn't matter if that wouldn't be likely. It's true.

Maybe I'm a stupid idealist who believes people should get things based on merit, their accomplishments, and the efforts they went to to succeed instead of getting boosts because of their race. It's the same way I believe that property taxes shouldn't determine school funding because that forms an unofficial caste system in society. Sue me for believing that equality should be true equality instead of the messed up system of this country where you're nothing if you're middle class and white.

niffler72

@serenityjade actually what you said was incredibly racist, privileged, and biased. basically what you're saying is that all MINORITIES get into schools because they're poor and of color and not because they're actually intelligent, which is racist. you can't be nothing if you're middle class and white 1. because white people are the majority in this country they can't be "nothing" and 2. because there's a such thing as a social safety net that you would fall into if needed. obviously if you're middle class you can afford to pay for a good portion of your own education and you don't need to ask for government handouts. you're acting like poor people don't suffer trying to get to school which is dumb because lower class people take out loans just like you do. you are hating on people who are unable to afford to pay for college and saying that you, middle class aka financially better off than they are, deserve the same money that they are getting. a privileged and wrong sentiment. true equality would be having college as free for everyone regardless of class, end of story.

also "why not just make AA about money instead of race? There has to be another factor" affirmative action in and of itself IS about money in that it's giving money to students who are financially unable to attend institutions of higher education. since minorities are usually poorer there's a myth that most if not all of affirmative action money goes solely to people of color, which just isn't true. i recently read a great post that says exactly what i'm trying to get across about affirmative action: " Affirmative Action is designed so that institutions are unable to discriminate against minorities (not limited to race); not to give preferential treatment. And the schools that are receiving funding because they’re admitting minorities are doing it for scholarships, initiatives, or programs that encourage minority participation in specific fields. Those initiatives exist because minorities are underrepresented in those fields. Minorities are underrepresented in “those fields” because minorities do not benefit from institutional discrimination where racism, sexism, and all other -isms (that are applicable when considering admission) when going through life."