celestial605

I am going to be a junior, and I've been pre-med since I was 6 years old. Feel free to ask about any pre-med questions, such as requirements or doing pre-med as a non-science major or the importance of research.

BioGuy

How would you say the pre-med major differs in courses, and overall outlook in the job market, vs the bio major. How are they similar? Why pre-med?

celestial605

I do know where upland is, by the way. I was in marching band, so we saw upland all the time (well, at least I think I know what you're talking about)

There is no pre-med major at Stanford. When I say I'm pre-med, I mean that I am taking the courses that are prerequisites for attending medical school, and that I plan to attend medical school after I graduate. The requirements include chemistry, biology, and physics courses, as well as a sprinkling of English and math.

So, what I meant by the second sentence of my post is that some people complete the pre-med track as a biology major (pretty common) while some people prefer to major in something else, like Poli Sci or Art History and be pre-med. For a while, I was a Psychology major and pre-med at the same time, but I switched to Biological Sciences.

juliet

What classes do you suggest taking as a freshman (ex. what level chemistry / math)?

freekfyre

someone on the general stanford board said something about the way stanford "weeds out" the pre-med students and that they way they did it was "un-stanford." could you clarify what this means?

celestial605

Juliet, I would advise starting chemistry ASAP. I think you can do Chem 31X or Chem 31A then 31B. (A+B=X) So, if you take the A/B series, you'll be a quarter behind the others, but it's seriously not a problem. A normal thing might be Chem 31X, Chem 33, and Chem 35 your freshman year. You may also want to take Chem 36 in the spring, which is a lab course (this can be put off till later). I don't recommend any lapses in time between the organic chemistry courses (33, 35, 131) because the knowledge is cumulative and it would be sucky to forget reactions you learned. As for math, take what you need, depending on what you did in high school... I did AP calc in high school, so I went and took Math 51 (which is linear algebra and multivariable calculus). I didn't take any more math after that. Many students choose to take the 40 series, which I believe is calculus. I don't know of many who took the 20 series. Check http://bulletin.stanford.edu for more class information.

Freekfyre, I will try to answer your question. A LOT of people come into Stanford pre-med (someone told me 50% of the student body thinks so when they come in, but this is hearsay) but the number drops every quarter. As I just mentioned, a lot of freshman premeds take Chem 31X their first quarter (general chemistry I think? I forget) and find it difficult or uninteresting and drop it. Then, organic chemistry starts (Chem 33), and a lot of people find that difficult, and drop it. This happens every quarter. It continues to happen in sophomore when people take the 3 biology core classes.... every quarter gets smaller. Tests tend to be pretty hard for the pre-med classes, and obviously not everyone will do well. Pre-med students tend to be extremely smart, bumping up the curves. When someone said it was un-Stanford, maybe they meant that Stanford does not exactly push everyone to succeed in the pre-med path. What I feel is that Stanford realizes medical school is a huge ordeal and requires a lot of stamina and dedication, so it's not for everyone. Thus, those who don't have the desire and determination to make it through chem/bio are not strong enough to be pre-med and thus it's for the best that they search for another path. I personally agree with this.

BioGuy

Nice post. I know some schools actually have the pre-med major, which, in my opinion, could turn out to be devastating if you ever decide not to attend/are not accepted into medical school. Pre-med, as a major, is too linear a path to follow. But yeah, I guess I'm pre-med then --I'm a bio major considering medical school. You'll remember Upland High Marching Band by how totally awesome it was (wore green and black uniform, and bagpipe players wore kilts). Go Scotts!

celestial605

Of course I remember =] I went to Fountain Valley. Remember us? Small female drum major = me (2001-2003)

celestial605

Sorry for the sidetrack. On with the thread.

Colbert_fan

What do you think is the largest pitfall for Stanford pre-meds? Is there a huge difference between humbio and bio majors in preparing for pre-med (amount of work, difficulty for high grades, preparation for med school applying)? Can you describe some of the successful tips you learnt? Is research more important than clinical experience? Does volunteering HAVE to involve medicine, or can it just be helping others in some way?

Thank you very much for taking your time to answer my bajillion questions!

celestial605

The largest pitfall for Stanford pre-meds? I'm not exactly sure what you mean... do you mean what discourages them the most, or what is the hardest part to accomplish? As for discouraging pre-meds, that would probably be what I described above - difficult classes. By no means are pre-meds cutthroat and evil and eager to sabotage each other - rather, everyone is quite supportive at Stanford. Some people just can't take all the o-chem and bio stuff. The hardest part to accomplish... hmm. I might stay staying with it through all the required classes I am a very determined pre-med and I have never been tempted to drop, but I have had difficulty in my classes. Another thing I find worrisome is planning - making sure I will complete all the requirements, making sure I've got a well-rounded extracurricular portfolio. Pre-med advisors are very helpful, though, and they are underutilized; if you were to just talk to one every now and then, they would help alleviate a lot of stress.

Humbio and bio... tough one. I'm a bio major, so I'll address that. It's not so much that there's a large workload; it's just that (in my opinion) questions are worded in such a way on tests that it can be difficult to do well. For example, in the biocore, for short-answer questions, even if you get a concept right but don't mention certain key words that they're looking for, you get points off. Bio has weekly problem sets which are not graded; they're just for you to practice and study. And again, large amount of pre-meds = high curve. Not impossible to do well, but I can't quantify "how hard it is to do well." I think that the bio major provides excellent preparation for applying to med school; you will have a strong background once you get into med school. I don't think med schools will look at your app and say "ah, another bio major, how boring. throw it out." What would be more important is showing passion for something.... man, I always say that =p Anyways, I believe humbio has weekly problem sets that ARE graded. I think there are more humbio majors than bio majors, but the percentage of pre-meds in humbio is less. One of my friends has made it sound like it is a little easier to do well in humbio. To medical schools, there is no difference. Make sure you look at the classes in the departments - http://bulletin.stanford.edu - to see which major would be better for you, since I think there's little difference otherwise.

Okay, successful tips I learned. 1) Keep on top of your work as much as you can. Try to at least skim assigned reading. 2) In class, sit towards the front and maintain eye contact with the professor. If I don't do this, I zone out. 3) Talk to the pre-med advisors and plan. Plan the classes you need to take, the classes you want to take, and what extracurriculars are good. They will be pretty honest about how you're doing. 4) Make some pre-med friends and help each other out With homework, with planning, with destressing... If I think of more, I'll post again later.

I don't think either research or clinical experience is more important. I think, though, that you should have both. Med schools want to see committment to something, whatever it is.... I have a friend in Stanford med school who does Ironman competitions (amazing). I know someone else who is nationally ranked in figure skating. But back to the research and clinical experience - I wouldn't worry too much about getting published. Research is definitely a good idea, though, since the way that works is a lot different that sitting in a lecture hall. The new way of learning will be good for you =] Clinical experience must be addressed as well, because medical schools want to know that you have an idea what you're getting yourself into. Wanting to be a doctor just because "you want to help people" isn't enough - you've got to have explored it and become more familiar with medicine.

Since I said clinical experience is important, then some volunteering should involve medicine. However, your focus does not have to be medicine. For example, my biggest activity is Henry's Place (http://stanford.edu/group/henrysplace) in which we teach elementary school students one-on-one through science experiments. And like I said above, people do random things from competitive snowboarding to starting their own clubs... So the most important thing is to show a) committment and b) passion. Med schools don't want drones who join every club but don't really have something they truly love.

I hope I helped!

P.S. My source (other than my experience) is the people in my Neurosurgery lab. Some are med school students, one is a Neurosurgery resident, and the head of the lab is a doctor on the med school admissions committee.

Colbert_fan

Thanks again, that really made clear a lot of the confusion/anxiety I had. (An extra-long summer break gave me lots of time to start worrying about med school; just like applying to college all over again, lol) I am an entering Cardinal freshman, and will keep your advice in mind when I head in.

qscgy

Celestial605, would you please share your first and second years Fall, winter and spring schedule?

celestial605

Sure thing. At the bottom of the post, I'll note classes or professors I found especially notable.

----Freshman----
FALL
Biosci 20. Brain and Behavior - Fernald
CEE 80N. The Art of Structural Engineering - Billington
Chem 31X. Chemical Principles - Waymouth/Boxer
IHUM 62. Conflict, Cooperation, and Human Nature - don't remember professor =X

WINTER
Chem 33. Structure and Reactivity - Stack/Kool
IHUM 31A. Ancient Empires - Ian something... I think
Math 51. Linear Algebra and Multivariable Calculus - Cohen
Psych 1. Introduction to Psychology - Kirkham

SPRING
Chem 35. Organic Multifunctional Compounds - Waymouth
Chem 36. Chemical Separations - Moylan
IHUM 31B. Ancient Empires - Walter Schiedel
Psych 195. Special Lab Research - Markman
PWR 1. Building Bridges: Brain, Biology, and Behavior - Bator

----Sophomore----
FALL
Biosci 41. Genetics, Biochemistry, and Molecular Biology - Simon/Simoni
Chem 130. Organic Chem Lab II - Moylan
Chem 131. Organic Polyfunctional Compounds - Huestis
Psych 120. Cellular Neuroscience - Wine

WINTER
Biosci 42. Cell Biology and Animal Physiology - a bunch of professors
Biosci 44X. Core Experimental Laboratory - TA-led lab sections
Chem 135. Physical Chemistry Principles - Pecora
NSUR 199. Undergraduate Research - Tse
Psych 60. Introduction to Developmental Psychology - Johnson

SPRING
Biosci 43. Plant Biology, Evolution, and Ecology - Mudgett/Petrov/Gordon
Biosci 44Y. Core Experimental Laboratory - TA-led lab sections
Biosci 150. Human Behavioral Biology - Sapolsky
NSUR 199. Undergraduate Research - Tse
SURG 68Q. Current Concepts in Transplantation (PWR) - Martinez/Krams

A couple of notes...
Wray Huestis is a great chemistry professor. Very clear, provides you with notes so you have time to pay attention in class instead of scribbling all period.

Robert Sapolsky is amazing - brilliant and entertaining. You'll find him in psych/bio. Human Behavioral Biology is a very popular class, offered every other year, and it's multidisciplinary - many people from English, Econ, Bio...

I did not take a PWR department class in my second year; instead, I took a seminar on organ transplantation that met the requirement. Very good move. Much less stressful than my friends said PWR2 was.

Psych 1 is a class that everyone should consider taking. Thought-provoking and informative. It's fun for everyone because you learn a little about developmental psychology, neuroscience, cultural psychology, all the branches... and there are some fun videos for you to watch =] Also, I'm a TA in Fall and Winter this year, so if you take the course then, perhaps I'll see you =] If you enroll, then I'll tell you my name. lol

I am also a TA for Bio 44X this coming year. Pre-meds must take this class, but it doesn't really matter when. The bio core and the labs can be taken sophomore year at the soonest.

Cohen is a good Math 51 professor. When I took the class, 3 different professors were teaching Math 51 at the exact same time. I actually enrolled in Munson's class, but he wasn't as good so I just went to Cohen's class and no one ever knew =]

Bator is a good PWR professor/fellow/whatever he is. Amusing, welcoming, and helpful. You'll note that the PWR I took with him wasn't really "fuzzy" - no literature involved For a hardcore bio person, that was a relief. Instead, we read popular science-type articles which was a ton of fun.

I hope this can be of some help. Please don't think this is like the "correct pre-med track". The chem and bio courses I took are pretty much in a typical order, but there are other ways to do it. Also, the humbio core satisfies medical schools' bio requirements. Feel free to ask me or your advisor for more info. Stanford is quite flexible, so try not to stress too much about planning all your classes.

P.S. Some people take physics 20 series or 40 series... I know someone who took physics her freshman year, and many people who took it their sophomore year. You will note I did not do either... I am pretty awful at physics, so this summer I'm taking 5 physics classes at UC Irvine, which is easier. There are about 5 Stanford kids in my classes doing the same thing. Many people also do it at Santa Clara.

P.P.S. I'm a bio major, neurobiology honors, psychology minor.

qscgy

Very helpful info. Thank you.
How do you get to b a TA?