Warning U of A - Page 2

NotMamaRose · 05-19-2006, 03:22 PM

Ms. Bagwell, thanks for taking the time to come on this board and explain to us the university's vantage point in this matter. I have one question, and it is this: you said something about students knowing at least six months in advance that they may not move on to the next year. Do you mean that in a general sense, as in "students who come to U of Arizona know that they have to pass muster at the end of every year to continue on to the next," or did you mean that students whose places were in jeopardy (in other words, those whose professors had decided that, for one reason or another, they were not achieving at the expected level) were taken aside and told that they were on a sort of probation?
In any case, this anecdote serves to remind students considering BFA programs (and their parents) that universities with cut systems do, indeed, act on those policies. People get cut. Those who are not willing to risk it perhaps should enroll at schools that don't have such a system in place.
Of course, that doesn't mitigate the heartbreak involved. So sad for all.

I can't imagine how I would feel if this were me, or my child. (I think that the professors and administrators involved also felt awful.)

jersey44 · 05-19-2006, 05:45 PM

Ms. Bagwell,

I would like to add my thanks to NMR's. It was gracious of you to explain your policies in such detail.

Having said that, I must tell you that I think it's completely wrong of UofA to hold auditions for admission freshman year. Your program sounds much more similar to those that admit students to the BFA program at the end of sophomore year.

Unless a student is cutting classes, not participating, etc., I believe the university has an obligation to provide training to those they accepted by audition. That's just my opinion ... others may disagree. But, I would never permit (i.e. finance) my student to attend the program described above, sorry.

-Jersey44

babar · 05-19-2006, 09:33 PM

I completely agree with Jersey44. Aside from the tension and stress, the lack of a safe environment in which to take risks, the obvious toxic element in such a program is the reality that one is playing musical chairs and for the sake of one's own interests must view others in one's class as competitors and not colleagues. This is the way of the world, but not the way of a healthy educational setting. Yuck. Samia, you are in a much better place!!!! If Uof Arizona continues to find that the BA students are as strong as the BFA ones who were admitted as freshmen, then either their audition process for freshmen is lacking or their freshman program is not advancing the students well...why split them and then reconfigure so dramatically? Why would anyone choose this?

mbagwell · 05-21-2006, 01:47 AM

I am grateful that you understood my intention to try and clear up any misunderstanding and to empathize with any parent saddened by this experience.

I believe the answer to your question about the 6 months notice is two fold. All students are required to read and sign on the application and audition forms for the School of Theatre Arts that they do understand our policy for entrance to the sophomore and junior levels for the BFA program. It is also listed on our web site.

The students are aware of this policy: before they audition, when they audition and throughout the year by their professors. They are also told at the meeting they have with their advisor in November and February or March that they should all sign up for classes for the fall semester as if they will not be advanced.

At the auditions at the end of the year, all students are equally reviewed so that all auditioning (BFA, BA and transfers students) are given the same opportunity. The BFA students do not automatically have an edge over the BA students or the transfer students. The BFA sophomores auditioning for the junior year are the only ones eligible to audition.

Many schools (NYU and Syracuse for example) take in twice as many students as we do and some schools do not let freshmen or sophomores enter into the BFA degree until their junior year.

There are schools who have MFA students who do not let undergraduate BFA students perform in main stage productions. Students from several BFA programs are only directed by other students. This is not the policy at Arizona. Each BFA student has a main stage performance opportunity each semester.

Each school has found the best way to work within their program. I agree that parents and students should investigate each school's advancement policy and see which program fits with the expectations of your child's education.

Again, I want to say that I know the heartbreak this type of rejection causes the families. But, it is only a turn in the road and the goals of the students and parents can still be the same.

mbagwell · 05-21-2006, 02:05 AM

All freshman and sophomores are on probation. Students are not confirmed BFA students, within the School of Theatre Arts, until their junior year. They will automatically be advanced through the degree from then on if they meet the academic and university requirements.

I can only speak for myself on advising, but I meet with my first semester freshman students during mid-terms and review their progress. I continually do the same throughout the spring semester.

If your child was told they were doing a good job then I am sure that these statements were true. However, when other students auditioned in May all students are equal and the competition for the sophomore year is very high.

It is extremely difficult to disappoint students who have done well, but that is the result of all auditions for competitive degrees. There is a limit to the number of students we can take.

Please feel free to contact me if I can help you or your child.

Prof. Himmelheber · 05-21-2006, 02:37 AM

I have to pipe in here, too.

Some of the incoming freshmen don't know they CAN audition into the BFA as a first year (perhaps weak high school counseling or naive research skills when it comes to department opportunities). Once they arrive and start in the BA track, they learn of the opportunities available to them through jury/audition.

Also, I would point out that this number of BA students advanced into the BFA program this year attests to the quality instruction that the UofA students get - the acting faculty for the "non-majors" sections are as top notch as the majors' instructors. I have instructed at this school, as was I a BFA MT student there 15 years ago. The instruction is of quality, in my experience.

And what Prof. Bagwell stated about the "classical acting" nature of the program, that is absolutely correct. I believe they feel that if students are not prepared for what the faculty knows awaits them in the following semester(s), they would not be well serviced by being advanced and then failing out (remember, the "B or better" for retention policy - which, BTW, is a common policy among BFA programs).

Again, my sympathies to all. This isn't easy on either side.

eve

babar · 05-21-2006, 07:54 AM

Prof. Bagwell,
I do appreciate your intent to inform and you do communicate in a caring manner which is also appreciated. That said, I reiterate my position that there is no point in separating BFA and BA students as entering freshman in such a system as the one described at your school. Prof. Himmelheber pipes in, and this perspective is also appreciated - however, students with well above the 3.0 average were unexpectedly cut this year in what appears to many an arbitrary fashion. I maintain that the policies at this school are quite different from policies at most others and that students should be wary of trusting this program. Knowing what I know now, I agree with Jersey44 and would not allow (finance) a student to be part of what is truly cruel and not good practice.

jersey44 · 05-21-2006, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Also, I would point out that this number of BA students advanced into the BFA program this year attests to the quality instruction that the UofA students get - the acting faculty for the "non-majors" sections are as top notch as the majors' instructors. I have instructed at this school, as was I a BFA MT student there 15 years ago. The instruction is of quality, in my experience.

This strengthens my position that UofA shouldn't bother with the freshman year audition process. It's a bit of a farce, isn't it?

alwaysamom · 05-21-2006, 05:06 PM

This is an interesting discussion on a very difficult subject. I'm curious, though, if the B.A. students are all students who have NOT auditioned, or are they applicants who have auditioned for the B.F.A. and have been placed in the B.A. program instead, or is it a mix? I guess I'm wondering why bother having two separate programs if the B.A. freshmen can easily enter into the sophomore B.F.A. stream after an audition.

Marsha,

I'm not sure what your point is with this quote:

"Many schools (NYU and Syracuse for example) take in twice as many students as we do and some schools do not let freshmen or sophomores enter into the BFA degree until their junior year."

Perhaps you could enlighten us as to how this relates to the discussion at hand.

I also am of the opinion that programs which cut kids like this are not places which I would recommend to any kids I know. I don't think that it's necessary, healthy, or wise, to have cut policies at the college level which will arbitrarily reverse an admissions decision which was already based on an audition. This obviously would not include instances where there are issues of attendance, being unprepared, poor work habits, etc. This is yet another reason why very careful research must be done during the application/audition process, and if you and your kids do not want to face this possibility, then choose wisely!

Ericsmom · 05-21-2006, 08:17 PM

I agree with our very wise alwaysamom and others above.

I think this discussion helps students who auditioned and did not get into programs on the front end appreciate the fact that many schools "cut" during the entering freshman audition process, by limiting the number of students accepted into the BFA. Many of those schools then seem to support keeping those same students for the whole 4 years until graduation. I'd rather be hurt by not getting accepted to start with than to be cut after one or two years somewhere.

bestshot · 05-22-2006, 10:30 AM

I certainly agree with those who expect a commitment for the four years after making it through the very grueling freshman audition process. At one of my daughter's auditions, the Director of a very competitive BFA program spoke to parents about wishing he had more than 3 minutes to make decisions about whom to accept and admitted to regretting some choices later. Perhaps 3-5 minutes isn't enough for either students or auditors to determine how good the "match" is?...........

rbplay32 · 05-22-2006, 11:09 AM

I agree with jersey, alwaysamom, babar, and others regarding this issue. About the auditioning process, I don't believe that 3 to 5 minutes is enough. And sometimes I'm sure it goes another way in regretting choices: I bet some schools may often regret NOT picking someone that they perhaps should have picked. I understand and know the audition is important, but I don't think it's the only thing that can predict talent and success.

By the way, if a student is getting good grades and feedback and is attending class, etc., that student would have no reason to believe he or she is in danger of being eliminated from a program. No reason at all. And I don't like the idea of cuts either after making it in with an audition or without for that matter (if it's a nonaudition program). If the student is making a commitment, the school should too. A poster here said (paraphrasing), "What is the worst thing that could happen? They don't get a job in the field after graduation?" These kids need to be educated and nurtured and to grow. If they were completely ready for Broadway, prime time, film, or whatever when they went in, why would they need the school? Just my opinion though.

NotMamaRose · 05-22-2006, 12:56 PM

So the lesson we and our children need to take from what happened to the original poster here is "Know whether the university or college you are applying to has a cut program, and if they do, take it extremely seriously, because programs *do*, in fact, cut people and if the program stated its policy up front, a student who finds himself or herself out of a BFA program halfway through has no real recourse."
I appreciated Ms. Bagwell coming on this list to explain University of Arizona's policy and program, but I still wish I had the answer to one question I asked, which was this (I am paraphrasing, as I am too lazy to go back and find my original post!

: Of the students who are cut from the performance major, how many are satisfied to just switch majors to something else and finish out their time at U of Arizona, versus leaving to pursue a performance degree somewhere else?
I would frankly be surprised if most MT BFA candidates were Ok with just switching majors/life goals at that juncture.
L

mbagwell · 05-22-2006, 02:05 PM

Each case is different. Some stay at the University of Arizona and change their major to vocal performance in the Music Department. Others go into
theatre education, theatre history, stage mangagement or technical design.
Some stay for one more year and get all their general education courses out of the way and then transfer or audition again for our program.

Some students change colleges in Arizona or return to their home states.

Most freshman have taken general education classes that transfer to any university.

It is difficult to select a high school senior after a five minute audition and know that they will be able to continue at that same school for 4 years.

I do want to set the record straight on the numbers this year which were not typical for us. Ususally, we do not advance only one ot two sophomores out of 20. The freshman to sophomore can vary. There are years that two or threee students want to change their major. On an average we usually do not advance 5 freshman because of transfer and BA competition.

mbagwell · 05-22-2006, 02:16 PM

I was making the point that our school selects only a small number of students. We hope in those five minutes auditions we can see all we need observe for this critical selection process. Of course, we hope to keep the entire group for 4 years. I am sure that every school tries their best.
But, that is always not possible based on many reasons which I have stated before in my reply

We have a small BFA program so we can give studetns a chance to perform. The schools that take in large numbers of students may not cut, but they usually can't give all those students performance opportunities in a main stage production directed by a professor or visiting professional director each semester.