Ektaylor

First: I am a declared PoliSci major, and intend to double major in Rhetoric.

I plan on enrolling in the following for my first semester (F08):

PolSci 103 - Congress (4 units)
PolSci 3 - Intro to Empirical Analysis and Quantitative Methods (4 units)
PolSci 179 - Undergrad PoliSci Colloquium (1 unit)
Rhetoric 10 - Intro to Practical Reasoning and Critical Analysis of Argument (4 units)
Rhetoric 20 - Rhetorical Interpretation (4 units)

All lectures are on T-Th aside from the colloquium, which I am assuming could complicate matters in terms of midterm stacking?

Anyway, is this overly ambitious? Too much in the same vein? etc

I would like to keep Rhetoric 10, 20 and PoliSci 3 in my schedule, as (1) both Rhetoric courses are required to declare the major and thus not be wait-listed for upperdivision Rhetoric courses (103A/B - UD prereqs which should be completed before my senior year) in SP09; and, (2) PolSci 3 may not be offered in SP09 and changes may be made requiring it to be completed before any research or honors thesis is to be attempted, which I plan on attempting.

Should I drop the UD PoliSci course and complete the 7 PolSci courses (to complete the major) in my following 4 semesters (taking 5 semesters to graduate) as opposed to "overloading," as mentioned ad nauseam at CalSo?

kenf1234

The Rhetoric courses are going to crush you, there's no way you can do all of that your first semester at Berkeley, if you're used to the grading standards at CC.

tastybeef

Go for it. 17 units for a semester is reasonable.

Ektaylor

@kenf

While my grades may have come from a CCC for the past 2 years, I do understand that grading at Berkeley is not the same, in the least. Secondly, I just spoke with an undergrad adviser from the Rhetoric department, and he said that I really should take both Rhetoric 10 and 20 at the same time, and it would not be overloading on difficulty given my status.

@tastybeef

After our heated private message exchange, I'm wary to take that seriously.

Ektaylor

Since I can't my last post:

@kenf

Since you seem to know a bit about the Rhetoric program, how much time would I need to allocate a week to both Rhetoric 10 and 20 to maintain A's (since it appears as if I cannot not take both of them my first semester)?

kenf1234

I am not an expert on the Rhetoric department. However, I am quite certain you are WAY underestimating the harshness of the grading and the standards expected. You may be an outstanding writer and analytical thinker, but assuming you are a pretty good writer and pretty good analytical thinker, you may end up struggling for Bs instead of fighting for As. Political Science won't be a cakewalk either. Frankly, if I were you, I'd forget about double majoring. A major in rhetoric will get you NOTHING. Take some rhetoric courses if they interest you, take them one at a time and see how it goes. If the grading is too harsh switch to P/NP. But if you are a Political Science major I would focus on that, that will give you PLENTY of work to keep you busy. Just attending lecture, attending section, and doing the readings will make you very very busy. Not to mention writing and researching the papers. You want to be starting work early on your papers, preparing rough drafts, and going over them with your GSI to make sure you are on the right track. CC, unfortunately, isn't good preparation for upper division Berkeley coursework, especially when it comes to writing good research papers.

I am not bashing CC I am just being, what I believe to be, frank and honest.

Ektaylor

I understand a BA in Rhetoric will not provide anything substantial in itself, and that is not the reason I am considering the major; without being a declared major rhetoric major I'll be wait-listed and will most likely not get into most of the UD courses I want to take. I also plan on using the summer sessions to spread out the course load as much as possible; if I do, in fact, double in both PoliSci and Rhetoric I will have 18 courses to take in order to fulfill both majors; now assuming I can knock-off one course each summer that leaves 16 courses to be completed over the course of 5 semesters (3.2 courses a semester).

If I complete the schedule listed above in the fall, I will have 3 UD courses a semester in both PoliSci and Rhetoric which leaves me below the fulltime requirement of 13 units, which I could achieve by throwing in 1 unit courses to bridge the gap.

If I omit one course from the schedule listed above, I will have 3.25 UD courses to complete a semester, meaning one semester I would have to absorb the brunt of 4 UD courses (though, this can be avoided if I take 2 UD courses during one summer).

Either way, if I plan on lowing my course load to 13 units in the Fall, or complete 17, the coursework would appear to be manageable for my time at Berkeley –please correct me if I have made a mistake.

kenf1234

PolSci 103 - Congress (4 units)
PolSci 3 - Intro to Empirical Analysis and Quantitative Methods (4 units)
PolSci 179 - Undergrad PoliSci Colloquium (1 unit)
Rhetoric 10 - Intro to Practical Reasoning and Critical Analysis of Argument (4 units)

13 units, above, is a great schedule. You will be challenged, you will be engaged, but you will not be overwhelmed. You will have time to devote to each class; time to go to office hours, work through drafts of your papers, and simply time to adjust to Berkeley. This is the best advice I can give you.

bartleby

Ken, I've often heard Rhetoric is a very difficult major, but looking at the grade distribution for Rhetoric 20 (Wintroub) is 56/44 A's and B's, no grades lower than that given. Carrico gave that class a 56/36 A-B distribution. I'd like to take rhetoric and have a good mind for that kind of thinking, but I don't want to screw up my GPA. What am I missing?

kenf1234

^^You are missing the self-selection. Only people "good at that kind of thing" in the first place would choose to take Rhetoric courses like that. That is my guess.

My point about rhetoric is that a good student is probably getting a B+, and you'd have to be very good to get an A- or an A. That would be my guess.

Ektaylor

When you refer to 'good' students and 'very good' students, do you mean in terms of work ethic, or intellectual capability?

bartleby

Well, I was thinking of self-selection because I know that it is fairly common knowledge that rhetoric classes are difficult, but what confused me was that only ~6/300 students in Rhetoric 20 and ~4/314 in Rhetoric 10 got grades lower than a B-. That's insignificant, and leads me to the question of whether self-selection for introductory courses can be that good.

kenf1234

I'm just speculating. I think there is a threshold of intellectual capability/writing capability required to do well in Rhetoric classes. If you don't have that, you just *can't* do well in Rhetoric. It's just like, if you aren't good at math, you just *can't* do well in upper-division math courses.

If you can meet that threshold, hard work will probably get you where you need to be, but if you really are outstanding in your writing/analytical skills, my guess with rhetoric is that you don't actually need to work too hard to do well. Many majors are like that, where you aren't required to memorize lots of information or master complicated systems or develop specific skills.

I don't know how that grading website works or how accurate their information is, so I can't speculate. But it's certainly possible that if you do all the work, you get a gentleman's B-, that certainly could be the case.

monkeyavenger189

why are you taking 17 units? why don't you take it slow by taking one fewer class and maybe taking it during the summer. iono, i'd tell you to go for it if you had already experienced what berkeley academics/policies were like, but since you are a transfer, you might screw yourself over. why would you risk screwing yourself over if you could just take one fewer class. You would give yourself time to "transition" in and enjoy your first semester.

LeftistHominid

take 17 units. taking 13 or 14 would put you behind. 17 units your first semester is completely doable.