Lexismom

KKmom

Thank you for all your input. UCLA is also one of the schools my d is considering. If you don't mind sharing, did she take the SAT II writing & math? Also,how did she do on her SAT I? My d has very good gpa but unfortunately did not do well on her SATs. She is retaking in October but I don't think she could improve as much as needed. Also, she took SAT II but in am. history and chem. I don't know if the theater department requires SATII to be considered.

Thanks

KTsMom

Lexismom,
My Daughter is not a great test taker, either (too slow, too obcessive!). Her SAT I was 1200 ( 560 Math, 640 Verbal), and SAT II Lit 600, Math 500, writing 570. Go figure, it was okay enough (thank God!).

lamom

I know a mom whose daughter just finished her second year at CSUF. We have know each other for years because of our kids. Most of our conversations are now at the local grocery store, used to be at our kids activities. The daughter made the cut (is that what it's called) and is in the MT program . I started jumping at the market when the mom told me. I know the girl wanted to stay in CA and I think the only other school she applied to was UCLA. I know she worked hard and her mom said she was prepared if her luck/hard work didn't go the way she wanted. I must add that the lower costs at CSUF allowed someone we know to buy a condo for their two kids just a block away from the school. The kids have 2 roomates, but the parents figured that it was better to buy a condo than pay dorm rent for two.

I visited the school with a negative attitude when son was looking for colleges. I had worked with several Fullerton students at Disneyland in my college years but never really visited the place. I changed my mind quickly. I was impressed with the school and the plans for the new performing arts center. We talked with several faculty, the honors program seemed outstanding. There are lots of places for students to find jobs, lots of things to do. My son didn't like the school--probably did not want to attend college so close to his birthplace.

Lexismom

Prof. Himmelherber: I understand you don't have do audition for Cal State Fullerton, do you just fill out the application or is there any particular additional procedure?

thanks

Prof. Himmelheber

The application to the school and the freshman level of the dept. is simple - fill out only the ONE application (the university application, available on line). If the university accepts you, and you declare theatre as your major, you're in the department (not yet the BFA program, which I'll explain next)!

The audition into the BFA program happens at the end of the sophomore year (for two reasons). First, we are a public/land grant institute, meaning we must be accessible to a vast majority of students desiring and qualifying for an education here, including TRANSFER STUDENTS who can't be "held back a year" because they opted to take two years at a J.C. We could opt to use a system like other schools, for example the University of Arizona, one that takes a student in at EITHER the freshman or sophomore level, but can release them from the BFA program at the end of either their first or second year of study (when many of the classes taken may not satisfy the general theatre studies degree requirements). This also forces the UofA to not accept students at any level higher than a sophomore - so transfer students automatically come in as either a freshman or a sophomore in the department, depending on where the department places them based on talent (not on units earned). We, as a California land grant/public institution, cannot do this - if a transfer student has taken two years of transferrable coursework at the Jr. College level, we must accept them in as a junior (unless they CHOOSE to repeat their sophomore year here in preparation for the BFA audition). And we have to be consistent - we can't say, "Well this transfer student is talented, so we'll make them a junior, and that one isn't so we'll make them a sophomore..." That is much too capricious to fly here.

The second reason we audition at the end of the sophomore year is to offer students who start here two FULL years of preparatory courses (all areas of the discipline except private voice are open to them) before being evaluated on their skills and talent. In those two years, the students work with most (if not all) of the professors in the discipline, get to know who their "competition" is, and know what it is we are looking for in the auditions (a definite advantage over the transfer students). We as a faculty are EXTREMELY candid with our students - we feel it is only fair to be so, as they are investing their time, effort, money and passion in their education here; and we feel we owe them an honest evaluation at every step. So if the student has taken all the recommended preparatory coursework, they really KNOW whether or not they are competitive by the time they finish their sophomore year.

I hope this answers your question. If you need more info, drop me an email, okay?

All the best,

eve

Prof. Himmelheber

I guess it might help to know what the audition into the CSUF BFA in Musical Theatre program entails...

The auditions (or "juries," as we call them) always occur in May, right before final exams begin (though we may advance the date by a week in the future, so that students can REALLY focus on final exams). Students receive the results of their juries within three days.

Students must pass ALL THREE areas of their juries (singing, dancing and acting) to be considered for admission to the BFA. After that, it becomes a matter of numbers - we can have no more than 20 students, junior and senior classes combined, at any time per National Association of Schools of Theatre accreditation guidelines. So if more than the allotted slots available pass all three juries, we have to prioritize the top students to accept into the BFA.

All juries are adjudicated by ALL area faculty qualified to evaluate that particular area (for example, voice faculty won't evaluate the dance call, dance won't evaluate acting or voice, etc.).

The juries span three days. On the first day, the students all sing - they come in the studio in groups of 7 or 8. Each student prepares a list of two uptempo songs, and two ballads. They present one song of their choice, and the faculty may choose to hear a second (and sometimes even a third) song, or portion thereof. We are looking for both legit and belt ability from the women (as this is a marketable/standard level of talent required in the industry today); men needn't have any special (e.g. falsetto) quality in evidence (as it is so rarely called on professionally). All students must show their vocal range. Acting values are assessed in this audition, as are body deportment (an expressive/responsive physical instrument). Students must pass this jury to be considered for the BFA.

The second day is the dance jury. One hour (or more) is devoted to each style: first tap, then jazz, and finally ballet - a three+ hour marathon of dance, if you will. The students all learn a combination as a group, then present the combination in groups of 4 or 5; then we move on to the next section/style/genre in the same manner. Students are evaluated on all portions of this audition (both the learning phase and the presentation). Students must pass all three areas of this jury to be considered for the BFA.

The third and final day is the acting jury. Each hour, we schedule about 8-10 scene groups. Each hourly group comes into the theatre at the same time, sit in the theatre seats, and one group at a time they present a 3-minute scene prepared with their partner (selected at random for them from their acting class colleagues - and class time is devoted to rehearsal and preliminary showings/evaluation). Transfer students may opt to bring in either a 3-minute scene (with a partner they secure and rehearse with), or two 1-minute monologues. These juries are open to observation by other theatre students (as an educational and self-evaluation tool), but MUST be treated as an AUDITION. No applause is permitted, nor is over-zealous response/laughter, because it is a timed audition, and at three minutes they are told to stop. If the audience is disruptive, the offending member(s) are thrown out of the room and not readmitted. These juries are adjudicated by every acting teacher (except the teacher of each student team, who cannot vote on their own students, but can provide feedback if requested by the panel), and every director in the department (this jury has the largest panel of adjudicators in the whole jury process). Students must pass this jury to be considered for admission to the BFA.

The jury voting system is simple: a "pass" or "fail" vote is awarded by each adjudicator, and a majority of "pass" votes must be earned to successfully pass that audition. Students do not receive each individual adjudicator's vote, but they do receive a summary of the votes received. Students also receive a copy of all written evaluation forms that each adjudicator utilizes (the originals are kept in the student's permanent file in the dept. office).

If a student passes the acting jury, but not the singing and/or dancing jury, they can continue as an acting BA major (soon to be a BFA program - hopefully in place next year!). However, if they don't pass the acting jury (or the dance and voice and acting juries, in the case of the BFA), they must choose to refocus their concentration: either general theatre studies (a true "liberal arts" degree), directing, playwrighting, design, tech, or stage management is open to them. Some even opt for secondary education with a teaching credential in theatre. So options do exist within the department for those students who do not pass their juries (and they can still get out in two years, if they don't slack off on the unit load required to do so; which is less than the average BFA unit load by the way).

And ANY theatre major (except for first semester freshmen) can audition for the main stage productions - so students not passed on in the BFA or acting program can still get onstage. And we have a HUGE season with LOTS of roles that must be filled; we RARELY use student in two shows within one semester - we do want them to graduate in a timely manner - so there are roles enough to serve many students (not only the upper-division majors).



I hope that this covers any questions you might have. Please let me know if you would like further information/clarification.

Thank you,

eve

soozievt

Eve,
I think it is fantastic that you are taking the time to share details about your program for those who are considering applying. I likely speak for others who wish we had such inside information about the details of a program and the process of auditions for every school!

While I am through with this process with my own child and admittedly did not look at West Coast schools (she did not want to) and do not know much about them, I do have two questions about what you wrote.

One is, you mentioned that the National Association of Schools of Theater accreditation guidelines allowing for just 20 students in junior and senior year combined (so that is an avg. of 10 per year). I am curious, then, how come every BFA program my D appliled to except CMU have more than this per year in the class. Is it because this is merely a "guideline"? I mean they all have more.

Second, I mostly have a comment, not really a question. I thoroughly understand your reasoning about the audition process/juries being after the second year and it makes sense reading it. However, I have to admit I would have a quesy feeling entering a college with the intent of majoring in MT and then find out I could not after two years and at that point it is too late to audition for the other BFA programs. I guess that is a chance a student has to take (and I realize your positive point about other theater majors or related opportunities), but it is possible that the student might have gotten into another BFA program if not yours (at least in my observations, kids get into some, not others, sometimes in total reverse of their peers.....one got into X but not Y and then the other got into Y but not X) and so when a student is not admitted to ONE program, it does not necessarily follow that they are not "competitive" to be admitted to another BFA program. In the system whereby the audition does not occur until after soph year, the student has all their eggs in one school's basket and if they really wanted to pursue a BFA, and do not pass muster with the jury after soph year at your school, they are out of luck in terms of pursuing a BFA. It is a little akin to a cut system. I realize there are other benefits or very valid reasons behind this system but it would make me nervous to go that route. I think it is great that you are explaining all this so that someone can weigh the options and be fully informed of the process. Again, what you wrote made perfect sense but it still would make me nervous about such an option that closes out other BFA choices. I realize you are not the only school with such a system. I think Northwestern has something along these lines as well.

Again, thanks for all the contributions you have made to the forum. It helps to have those IN the programs participating here.

Susan

candylady

Our HS college counselling office told us that UCLA only accepts about 3% out of state students each year [not just MT--but the whole school]. Is this accurate? We have friends that just went there for a college visit and they did not get this same story. Can anyone offer any info on this subject?

hayhayden

soozievt -

I just did a little google search on this National Association of Schools of Theatre, and found their site (http://nast.arts-accredit.org/. It appears that the reason the schools your daughter was accepted to have higher numbers than the guidelines Prof Himm. spoke about is because none of the "top" schools (NYU, Carnegie, CCM, BoCo, etc, etc) are apart of this association. The NAST seems to be made up of non-accredited college programs (AAMD, etc) and the big state schools.

Prof. Himmelheber

NAST sets guidelines for individual programs as part of the accreditation review. These are based on curriculum, classroom space, production opportunities, and NUMBER OF TEACHERS in the program. The latter is the primary reason we are limited to 20 in the program; if we go over that number, the students are not getting the full one-on-one teacher experience that we hold to be our standard (and that NAST accreditation demands).

Remember, CSUF offers all the major coursework "in house," meaning "by our own Theatre & Dance Dept. faculty" (rather than farming students out to a separate Dance Dept. and/or Music Dept.). This cohesive approach is wonderful, but costly - and getting $ for more teachers is simply not an option (when compared to the theatre and department as a whole, relatively so few are served by the BFA that the "Full Time Enrollment" dollars generated won't warrant this).

We'd LOVE to have more teachers so that we could accept more students and "grow" the program; and we have received a few new positions this year (in anticipation of the BFA in Acting program going through and to replace retirements). But with strained California budget, we are glad to have what we have now. It could be a lot worse.



On your second question/comment, I know. It's scary to face that you have invested two years and then might not be a BFA student. But classes that have been taken here may transfer to other universities (if that school will accept them); so students have that option as well - transferring out, and repeating that one (or two) year(s) at another program that will accept them...it's not uncommon in education today to take five or more years to graduate (in any discipline, not just the arts).

Playing "Devil's Advocate" now, I find a more scary proposition is the "let's take as many students as we can get, and then weed them out year by year" approach that many of the large/private institutions have. When looking at the numbers they accept, you must consider the number that actually enroll as freshmen (some are accepted on a contingent basis, as alternates, and may or may not make it in); and also the numbers that survive to their junior and senior year. And what is the student/teacher ratio like in those first two years of study? Very likely NOT what it is in the upper division. As discussed on this thread, some students leave of their own volition, but a majority of losses are students cut for artistic and/or academic reasons (many right into the senior year of study!). That is equally frightening to me as having two years to grow, groom, mature, and decide whether or not you are right for the program and vice versa.

I have heard (on this site) that a lot of students don't KNOW about the audition process here at CSUF - lack of research must contribute to this misunderstanding, as we are VERY candid about this in all discussions/communications. Thus, these students have a big disappointment/surprise ahead of them...but, as with all college prospects, "buyer beware." Learn about the program that you intend to invest four (or more) years, as well as a good deal of money, in.

Each year, more students choose to come to CSUF knowing full-well the risks of the process. And more and more keep coming each year. I believe our training is of such a quality, and their self-confidence in their own abilities/training, are enough for them to justify taking that risk.

Like the industry these kids have chosen (or, which has chosen them when they were first bitten by the Mus. Th. bug), there is no guarantee. This career path can be terribly disappointing. Rejection is the word - disappointment, du jour.

All of the top national musical theatre programs in some way or another prepare these students for that world - both in the training they receive, and in the constant evaluation (and exclusion) based on an aesthetic sensibility that the student has no control over. But that is our business; you need a "rhino skin" to make it in this industry (or else, one heck of a good therapist). I think that the best advice I can give parents is this:

1) Understand the business demands of this industry, so that you can keep the whole process (school, auditions, gigs, tours, casting, disappointments, etc.) in perspective - then it is easier to realize that no individual action is an "attack" on your child; it is merely part of the entertainment "circle of life," and one your child needs to embrace/accept as soon as possible.

2) Support your child 100% - this doesn't mean coddling them, or telling them that the "mean old school" doesn't know what they are doing/missing by cutting or not casting them. It means understanding that your child is hurting, and telling them that you know they are hurting, you share their pain, and you love them no matter what. Unconditional love and support are worth 100 times over any undue pressure that might be felt by your child (when a student is fragile or susceptible, they might feel they are LETTING YOU DOWN by not succeeding at any/every challenge). And over-protecting is bad for obvious reasons (the "stage mother" complex doesn't allow the child to mature and grow on their own terms/merit).

3) Realize that there are many professionals who work ALL THE TIME without a formal college education. These pros take independent classes and studio and lessons, for a premium expenditure. So, one might think of an education at a good college as an alternative to private lessons/coaching, at a reasonable (?) rate, on a regular/intense basis, in preparation for a career. Just think, if you took the money that you might spend at a top Mus. Th. university/conservatory, and put that into housing and private lessons in NYC for your child for four years, you would likely have the same (or better) results in the end - sans the "piece of paper" that the degree is (a "fallback plan" for many, allowing the student an "out" if they don't make a career onstage). The result of both roads? A student who knows how to capitalize on and care for their instrument; one who is well versed in the various demands of the industry and can meet those with facility; and one who knows how to audition for jobs, and keep the engagements once hired. In fact, the "networking" at private studios is often more valuable than that achieved at a university. And private studio students can AUDITION whenever they want, and TAKE JOBS whenever they come: Broadway, tours, cruise lines, theme parks, summer stock, regional theatre, etc. (it's a young person's business, and the window of opportunity is limited). Students in school cannot (or VERY rarely can) do this.

Finally, if your child wants to do Musical Theatre as a career, and knows they have your unconditional support and love, nothing can stop them - not even rejection by one or more schools.

I'm rambling, so I'll close now.

eve

Prof. Himmelheber

Schools must CHOOSE to be scrutinized (and it is an incredibly long and tedious process, involving review of EVERY aspect of the department, curriculum, facilities, equipment, productions, faculty, etc.) for NAST accreditation.

I think that the biggest MT schools in the nation feel they don't need to be scrutinized in this manner - they know they are the tops, and don't feel they need an accrediting body to confirm that.

eve

MusThCC

"bump" for Irishcharm

flyerband

I know it's more than a year later but I can't even tell you in words how wrong I think KTsmom got it when she looked at CSUF. What she saw were the beginnings of a fantastic place. It is NOW without a doubt the best, most technically advanced and beautiful facilities in the state with arguably the best BFA program. Don't take my word for it...GO LOOK!

Prof. Himmelheber

Hey, that's right! I haven't updated the links to our new building in its completed state (we tripled our existing space with this add on). It is considered one of the premiere performance centers in the state now:

http://www.fullerton.edu/arts/events/PACOpeningPg.html

Find the blue link to the Gala Photos, and you will notice our BFA boys (including ONE SOPHOMORE!) performing with Marc Cherry (an alum of our Dept., and the Exec. Prod./creator of Desperate Housewives). You will also see our Broadway alums in later pictures, and one picture (with the skyline in the background) of our Broadway alums dancing onstage with our current BFAs (what you can't see in the picture is the 50 BFA wannabes dancing ALL over the auditorium house - they did YOU CAN'T STOP THE BEAT, original Bway choreography, taught by our alum who was in the show at the time).

There are also pictures of the addition only - PAC Photos. Numbers 9 & 10 are of our new Jerry Samuelson Musical Theatre Studio (named after our beloved Dean, who made this whole building possible). This space is ENTIRELY and EXCLUSIVELY devoted to musical theatre and musical theatre dance class (tap and jazz included). We also gained two small dance studios, one large dance studio (the mirror image of the MT studio, on the opposite side of the building), and two theatres (one thrust, one arena). We also have gained faculty offices, design labs (sound, cad, lighting, drafting, costumes, makeup) as well as storage (costumes, props, musical theatre equipment, shoes).

It is truly a remarkable facility. Not without its faults - we are still working on getting the monitors in the dressing rooms hooked up...but the sound design team has been fabulous about making do with what we have and creating a workable system. And there is no water fountain close to the MT studio, so students are permitted to bring in water in capped containers.

Thank you for reminding me, Flyerband!



eve

came2senses

I am new to this place so please bare with me. lol. I am planning to transfer to SFSU in the fall. I chose this school because 1, my mom works for the CSUs and I get 6 units free and 2, I wanted to be in a big city OTHER THAN LA. My reasoning is that I can get other opps because it is a big city and there are alot of auditions for other projects. I don't know if anyone has any insight on this but please, anything will help.