How is UChicago rigorous?

No Quarter · 04-15-2008, 06:11 PM

I constantly hear how UChic is extremely rigorous (Where Fun Comes To Die, etc.) Could someone describe how so? Are the tests hard? The grading? etc. As many examples as possible would be nice.

unalove · 04-15-2008, 07:00 PM

Two prefaces to anything I say:

1) There is no concrete evidence that Chicago is "extremely rigorous," at least when compared to other elite schools. I'm under the suspicion that you can find challenging courses equivalent to "Chicago level" almost anywhere. (My evidence for this is trailing comments from a handful of posters, who turned down big-name schools like Chicago for little-name schools, and were able to find courses that match or exceed their challenge level).

2) Where Fun Comes to Die is a slogan we slab on a t-shirt (and sweatshirt) and sell for an enormous markup to current students. The only people who take it seriously are prospies.

... Now that that's out of the way.... ways in which Chicago can be considered rigorous....

-- The Core Curriculum is pretty extensive and Core courses are not "gut" courses
-- Classes move at a pretty fast pace on the quarter system, there's no lull or downtime from the moment you sit down on the first day to when you take the final.
-- A grades are not given out for entitlement's sake; they are earned with a good amount of hard work
-- Students here really like working and can be intimidating through the quality and thoughtfulness of their comments in class. Simply doing the reading won't make you feel at the top of the class-- you've got to go beyond.

The kinds of people who don't do well here are those who are emotionally attached to high grades and those who feel insecure about their intelligence. I think this school is excellent at making you feel stupid, at times, and it doesn't emanate the same warm fuzzies that a lot of other schools do-- we're more on the "tough love" end of things. I, for one, really thrive in this atmosphere-- I've been stretched intellectually without being overexerted emotionally.

phuriku · 04-15-2008, 07:58 PM

Quote:

There is no concrete evidence that Chicago is "extremely rigorous," at least when compared to other elite schools.

Well, of course not. Such evidence would be either very difficult to find or nonexistent altogether. There is also no evidence that schools like Caltech are extremely rigorous, but it's so self-evident that nobody bothers to question it.

Quote:

I'm under the suspicion that you can find challenging courses equivalent to "Chicago level" almost anywhere.

No, I don't think so. When I compared my language courses to my state school's (which is ~#50 USNWR), I found that we progressed at least 3x as fast here. I also know people there taking advanced math courses, and they don't even compare to the math courses here. At HPCM, et al., you can find extremely difficult courses in no matter what area you look. As for schools below roughly ~#40, I don't think there's even a comparison.

Now, I think there's a considerable difference between certain departments. In some departments, the average grade is perhaps an A or an A-, despite weak students. In other departments with very strong students, the average grade would be a B or a B- (biology comes to mind). It really all depends on your major.

No Quarter · 04-15-2008, 08:27 PM

I'm thinking of majoring in Philosophy or Int Relations. Are those hard?

phuriku · 04-15-2008, 08:41 PM

This is only hearsay, but I heard that philosophy wasn't particularly rigorous (in the scientific sense). A friend of mine took mathematical logic and some philosophy courses, and he said that the people in the latter courses couldn't understand axiomatic principles very well (which is absolutely vital to philosophic logic). I must admit that this is one of the reasons why I could never be a philosophy major. Too many people see it as a study of "humanities" instead of a science.

aristotle1990 · 04-15-2008, 09:05 PM

phuriku, do you think that Chicago is rigorous in comparison to other schools of its prestige? Do you think that, for example, an introductory economics course, or Latin course, or math course, or biology course, is generally harder at Chicago than at Harvard?

unalove · 04-16-2008, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Do you think that, for example, an introductory economics course, or Latin course, or math course, or biology course, is generally harder at Chicago than at Harvard?

Phuriku and I can't answer this question, but if you start poking around these boards, see if you can get somebody to send you syllabi from various courses and their potential equivalents at other schools.

My general impression is that the easiest courses here are harder than the easiest courses at other schools of comparable prestige. I would be lying if I said that I worked a lot, and if I went to another school, I imagine that either a) I would put in about as many hours as I do now, or b) I would be very unhappy because I either 1) wasn't putting as much time into work as I thought I should or 2) other students weren't putting time into work. So I think I'm in the best situation for me.

idad · 04-16-2008, 12:36 AM

S1 has attended college programs at a top Ivy and a top public. In each case he felt there was a difference between those and Chicago. He felt at Chicago he was expected to go beyond the course material in interesting theoretical ways, whereas at the other schools, the emphasis was on mastering the course material and exploration was not emphasized. The amount of work was roughly the same, it was the nature of the work that he felt was different.

JHS · 04-16-2008, 08:05 AM

There is a big difference between saying Chicago is "rigorous" and saying it is "more rigorous" than some other place. It's rigorous because it is difficult to find a course that doesn't cover a significant amount of material in a short time, that doesn't require a fair amount of work to learn the material and to get a B or better, and where students don't actually learn something that affects how they thing in major or minor ways. Also, students tend to be engaged in what they are studying, and challenge one another's BS. Part of the culture of the place seems to be high standards of logic and proof in academic discourse.

On the whole, that's how I would describe the competitor school where I went to college as well, although I would admit that it was probably easier to find a "gut" or two per semester there than it has been for my kids at Chicago, and BS sometimes went unchallenged. (But I have no idea how things are at my alma mater now in that regard.) I might add that perhaps the easiest course I took in college was one in which I learned a LOT that has stuck with me through my career. The ease of the course was a function of really thoughtful course design, not lack of rigor. The course could have covered more material, sure, but time has proved that the material it covered was the IMPORTANT material, the fundamental principles and concepts. (The course? Introduction to Financial Accounting, in the Economics Department. It changed my life. I don't think Chicago offers a course like that.)

Sheed30 · 04-16-2008, 11:13 AM

GSB.........for the specific class, but i definitely understand where you're coming from.

WindSlicer · 04-16-2008, 01:43 PM

Yea, actually I think a friend of mine took Financial Accounting last quarter from the GSB.

But yea, Chicago is rigorous. More rigorous than other top places? Perhaps, but at a certain level the rigor is what you make of it.

idad · 04-17-2008, 02:37 AM

This was posted by a student a couple of years ago when asked about the Chicago Style of Argument. I believe this is part of the reason for the rigorus label:

Quote:

Basically, you must always construct a careful, step-by-step argument, you must always define and thoroughly understand your terms and the terms of your text, and you must be willing to apply your ideas to hypothetical situations and difficulties in interesting ways. Arguments must be characterized by a strict adherence to evidence and logic, with exploration via examples and questions. Making irrelevent points, trying to argue without strong evidence, and making assumptions without carefully defending them will all be treated mercilessly.

I found this to be true when I attended as a grad student whether one was speaking to friend or intellectual foe.

No Quarter · 04-20-2008, 10:04 PM

Well, I want to be a lawyer, but then I saw that most T14 law schools want a 170+ LSAT and a 3.7+. I love Chicago, but frankly, I don't want to compromise my future goals if the academic environment is THAT hard.

WindSlicer · 04-20-2008, 10:13 PM

If only Chicago was well known to law schools.. if only...

CountingDown · 04-20-2008, 10:20 PM

WindSlicer,
Not sure of T14 rankings these days, but Chicago was a top 5 law school when my DH applied twenty years ago. He was #1 on the waitlist (yes, they actually told him that) and would have given up Penn in a heartbeat. However, the previous year they had a number of students who deferred entrance for a year, and they all decided to matriculate, so they took noone off the waitlist. H had a great time at Penn, but we have had fond memories of Chicago ever since.

The law schools know about Chicago. Don't worry.