tank

I am currently considering Cornell and UMich. Does anyone know how they compare to each other regarding campus life, student life, academics, networking, job placement, etc? Especially Alexandre, who attended both Cornell and UMich. Thanks

Alexandre

I realize that Dstark...those damn pesky kids! LOL!

Gchris, I think you can get further on this forum if you:

1) stopped referring to the posters as "jihadists" and "cohorts".

2) stuck to facts rather than unsubstantiated rehtoric and meaningless statistics

You claimed that Michigan isn't as academically inclined as Vanderbilt, Emory, Cal or UNC. You claimed that the student body at Michigan is not as capable or talented as the students at those schools. You also claimed that Michigan students do not go on to earn as man Rhodes, Marshall and Fulbright scholarships as students at other top schools. You were wrong in all counts. It helps if you got something right.

Mnozzi, I definitely embellish sometimes and I also criticize at other times. Overall, I generally give sound and impartial advice, even when it comes to Michigan.

tank

can someone please answer my questions? thank you.

GoBlue81

You're right. There is definitely a discrepancy between the pdf article and Fast Facts on the Michigan website (despite the date 10/31/2005 on the bottom of each page of the pdf). May be hoedown can help explain that.

There is, however, no discrepancy between Fast Facts and Michigan's Common Data Set as the data are taken from different years. I've been following this for the past few years... the data posted on fast facts and the common data set usually agree. You will have to take my word for it until common data set 2006-07 is released some time next year.

And how do you like the numbers I posted?

GoBlue81

When we discuss Michigan's ACT range, we need to take into consideration that, historically, Michigan puts much more emphasis on curriculum and GPA than standardized test scores. To illustrate - In the old point system, you get the same points (12) if your ACT score is in the 31-36 range; you get one point less (11) if you score in the 27-30 range. On the other hand, you can get up to 10 points in school factor, and 8 points in curriculum factor. You get 80 points if you have a 4.0 GPA, but only 74 if your GPA is 3.7.

So if you are one of those in-state students mnozzi mentioned above, and if you have a 3.9 GPA and scored 30 or 31 on ACT the first time, would you take the ACT again to improve your score? On the other hand, if you are applying to the elite privates, would you take the SAT/ACT only once?

Alexandre

Tank, I think the Cornell vs Michigan topic has been well discussed several times. Anyway, here we go again for your benefit.

By and large, those two schools enjoy virtually identical academic excellence and reputations, and similar placement (both academic and professional) and networking opportunities. Some students are blinded by Cornell's Ivy League membership, but in the academic and professional worlds, that distinction is practically non-existant.

Those two schools have much in common. That's because Cornell's co-founder (Andrew Dickson White) was a Michigan man, as were 6 of Cornell's 12 presidents, including the first two presidents.

However, those schools have their own distinct characters and cultures, and as such, it is not too difficult to chose between them. Michigan is more spirited and has more on-campus and off-campus activity. Ann Arbor is also larger and more cenrtally located and has more to offer than Ithaca. On the other hand, Cornell offers a more self-contained campus feel and Ithaca provides a more remote and far greater outdoors experience. It really depends on personal preference.

Whatever you do, don't make a choice based on academics, reputation, networking or placement because those two schools are practically identical. Focus on the real differences, such as setting and environment.

tank

thanks alexandre. you really seem to know your stuff. when did you graduate from michigan?

Alexandre

Well, I spent 4 years at the University of Michigan and 2 years at Cornell, so I got to know and love both schools. I graduated from Michigan in 1996, but I lived in Ann Arbor from 2001-2003 and, as an Alumni Recruiter, I am still superficially involved in Michigan's admissions process.

mnozzi

Hopefully I am not too far off with my statements. I interface with a lot of people. My brother went through the admit process three years ago when we lived in another state. My family is in academia. These are my observations.

Although a lot of you have a thorough understanding of what is required for admittance to UM, you same people have no idea of what most HS juniors and seniors are thinking/doing.

First of all the AVERAGE high school student knows that high test scores and good GPA's translate to admittance to good colleges. Most have no idea what it really takes to get into a top 25 LAC or "ivy/ivy-like school'. In MI, most info comes from GC's, parent conversations at cocktail parties or sporting events, and feedback from current students. High schoolers rarely listen to alumni, especially those over 40, most went to MI years ago and much has changed. These same alumni rarely visit the school -- Alexandre and others, this is not meant for you-- their info is as accurate as the cocktail circuit they are on (HALF RIGHT, HALF WRONG).

These are my observations about UM.

I know there is safety in numbers. There’s a lot of a UM alumni and it’s hard to standup against all of you – but I am trying to give my best effort.

UM undergraduate is a great school but it is not as intellectual as you want to believe. Nor can the majority of the students compare to the all-around students at some of the top US schools. The Honors college is impressive. But I can’t tell you how many people I know who study 4 and 5 hours a night to get high GPA’s and who have parents that send them to classes or hire tutors to get their ACT’s from 24/25 to 28/29. These kids actually stop playing a sport or give up a club so they have more time to study.

At the same time the school is turning down kids with ACT’s in the 31-33 range with GPA’s of 3.4 to 3.5. Really bright kids who want to want try multiple activities or are forced to work and are being punished. This would not happen at Northwestern or Chicago or even CMU or Williams.

Yes I know you are going to say that happens at the top schools too. But it’s different. Those schools demand their kids to be “all dancing and singing”. And if you have good EC’s they are forgiving of lower grades if the intellect level is there. UM is not.

It seems all we discuss on this thread is ACT/SAT and GPA scores. What about the all the other qualities that make a true intellect. UM is not always building a total person but rather caters to the top academic students (mostly defined by GPA, not always considering the number of AP or Honor courses taken and regardless that they may lack leadership, service, etc skills) – this may be why they may not have as many winners of prestigious graduate awards or many well known humanitarians. Most schools want everything. UM has taken many of my friends with ACT’s of 25-26, GPA’s of 3.9 or above and no impressive EC’s.

HA -- GOBLUE81 – GPA’s of 3.9 and ACT’s of 31. Hardly -- believe it if you want.

UM may be a very good school but it is not nirvana. HYP aren’t either. Yes it has weaknesses.

dstark

mnozzi, you wrote..
"UM undergraduate is a great school but it is not as intellectual as you want to believe. Nor can the majority of the students compare to the all-around students at some of the top US schools."

I'm 50 years old and I don't know what intellectual means.

Is Penn more intellectual than Michigan?

GoBlue81

I don't know what you mean by that. Aren't we saying pretty much the same thing?

Or are you saying U-M doesn't have that many students with 3.9 GPA and 31 ACT? According to the statistics, over 52% of the 2006 class has a 3.9 GPA or better; and 25% with 31 ACT or better.

Alexandre

Mnozzi, you say "But I can’t tell you how many people I know who study 4 and 5 hours a night to get high GPA’s and who have parents that send them to classes or hire tutors to get their ACT’s from 24/25 to 28/29. These kids actually stop playing a sport or give up a club so they have more time to study." I hate to break it to you, but the same can be said of the typical Ivy League applicant. Do you honestly believe that Ivy Leaguers don't prepare for the SAT? That they are naturally smarter than Michigan students and just ace the SAT without taking a couple of prep classes?

I am not really qualified to measure the intellectual level of an entire campus. I am fairly confident that the University of Michigan and Ann Arbor are pretty intellectual. I have been intimately involved with several other high profile universities and communities and found very few that matched Michigan/Ann Arbor. But it really depends what one means by intellectual. What I know is that at a university like Michigan, a student can accomplish anything. Michigan is one of a handful of universities that can truly claim that.

Is Michigan perfect? Definitely not. I never claimed it was. But it is one of the top 15, if not top 10, undergraduate institutions in the US (I stress undergraduate because at the graduate level, it is one of the top 5).

mnozzi

DStark --

Intellectual -- here's a definition I found on the web -- An intellectual is a person who uses his or her intellect to work, study, reflect, speculate on, or ask and answer questions with regard to a variety of different ideas.

Yes - I think Penn is more intellectual then MI. Why because acceptance is not just about GPA and ACT scores. They are looking at the entire person. All singing and dancing.

Why do I say this --here's just one example -- last year one of my friends was admitted to UM Honors and rejected by Yale, Middlebury, Wesleyan, Northwestern and Chicago. If you want more examples I can get them.


GOBLUE81. --What I was referring to was your statement -- if they have a GPA of 3.9 and a 31 on the ACT they probably won't bother trying for a higher ACT score. Right they don't need it for UM especially if they are in state.

Also that is the top student. The majority of students do not have a 3.9 and a score higher then 31. And I'd bet a large percent that do are in the Honors college or are from OOS.

Also, I bet you are an engineer or a math major. You are good at the quantitative concepts but you often overlook qualitative concepts. I'm 17 and am smart enough to know that with a 3.7+ (mostly honors and AP's from two different very good high schools), 30 ACT, athlete, Class officier, with a more EC's -- that I'm not that special. There are a lot of people smarter then me, more athletic then me, with better leadership skills. If anything I am the UM profile. I am not Ivy material and will be denied by the top LAC's. Why can't you be just as objective about UM.

Alexandre

Yes other students are for studying for SAT's and ACT's -- the difference they know they need to get 32/33 or higher to go IVY or to a top LAC.
These are not the same students who have gotten a 25 and are studying to get a 28/29 to get into MI.

If UM is within the top 15 undergraduate schools in the country what are the 14 schools above them. Even when the top LAC's are excluded UM never makes the top 20 national universities.

To all you -- I am just trying to present a different case for a school that I think I know something about. There's a lot of parents and kids who read CC. They are using what you say as a guide for a school to attend. Yes there are weaknesses. Everything has weaknesses. It's easy to find out about the quantitative parts of a school and decide if you are a good fit. It's hard to determine if a school's a good fit if the negative concepts are never discussed.

Also, there's a lot of kids who are being rejected from UM. In MI this is failure for a lot of them. They need to know there are other schools that are just as good that could be a good or even better match.

WS17

mnozzi, I think you make a good point. By using unweighted GPA and not so much emphasis on the SAT, it seems UM admissions does make it difficult for kids who go to highly competitive HS's, spend a lot of time on ECs and/or sports, and also take the most challenging honors workload (with classes full of kids headed to Ivies, MIT, Duke, Stanford, etc.).

I assume what UM is going for with this approach, is to make UM available to the widest array of Michigan public schoolers, which is understandable.

At our HS, there are kids who never take any honors classes that have a 3.9 uw GPA, but they could not handle honors math or science classes. If they can get a 1350 on the SAT, I guess they are a shoe-in at UM.

dstark

mnozzi, I happen to have a friend who had a daughter that graduated from Penn and a son who goes to Michigan.

I know other people who have gone to both schools.

Penn is not more "intellectual" than Michigan.

You are confusing entrance requirements with what is actually happening at the schools.