New system to help U-M make admissions picks, maintain diversity - Page 2

beprepn · 03-31-2007, 09:00 AM

I can't tell. Is the article accusing UM admissions of using this new approach in order to subvert the voter mandate?

asteriskea · 03-31-2007, 09:52 AM

My answer to that is to uphold it in a way that fulfills U-M's mission and diversity goals.

Kenshinsan · 03-31-2007, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awheio

This is just sad.

People like this won't ever be happy until they have an all white school like the old days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by asteriskea

Just how and why is this sad and is it stereotyping applicants? Universities do have diversity goals and the articles quoted above contain several statements made by University of Michigan reps. that make that perfectly clear.
Quote:
Ted Spencer, executive director of the University's undergraduate admissions office, said the University hopes Descriptor Plus will prevent the sharp drop in minority attendance that was seen at the University of Texas and the University of California system after their states banned the use of affirmative action...
Of course race and ethnicity are factors that are taken into account to build a class. But as long as race and ethnicity are not the key factors used to identify prospective candidates, determine or make admissions decisions, or even to design admissions models, they process is considered to be race neutral. Successful admission models must allow higher ed administrators to meet diversity goals (male-female balance, geographic distribution, socioeconomic levels, academic and EC interests, as well as race) and, at the same time, withstand legal scrutiny over time. Colleges and universities do have a bottom line and a mission and it follows that they must meet institutional goals - and racial and ethnic diversity must be just a part of the whole. The U-M's use of the CB's Descriptor Plus directly in the admissions process is a both a cost-efficient and rather astute path to find an admissions model geared to maximize HE goals and minimize legal risk.

EXACTLY right. How can you not take race and ethnicity as a factor at all when you make a class. Not considering that factor at some level is stupid. Race and ethnicity are a VERY IMPORTANT part of someones life, and it one of the main ways people look at them in the outside world. To not take that as a factor at all is not taking into consideration how someone has grown up and what they have had to deal with their whole life. It is basically ignoring a whole chunk of what makes a person up. If part of the college admission process is finding out how a person is as a whole then those factors have to be taken into account somewhere.

While AA might have been to severe for some I feel this in not severe at all and is a definite step in the right direction. This system does not give a boost to anyone it just takes factors of who a person is more into account so that they can create a diverse student body. No matter how many of you people in the suburbs think that everything is fair and the same everywhere this is NOT TRUE, this system takes that into account, and thus it should be praised, not knocked on. Will any of you pro-segregation people ever be happy.

03-31-2007, 10:34 AM

so is this good for other races than white guys?

Kenshinsan · 03-31-2007, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by midgets89

so is this good for other races than white guys?

No, this system takes all of that into account.

Quote:

Originally Posted by asteriskea

his update article fills in a few more details on the new wrinkles in UM's holistic admissions process:

Quote:
University officials said Wednesday that they have received a record 27,000 applications from students seeking admission to Michigan next fall. They expect that number to be the largest among Big Ten schools for incoming freshmen.

Roughly 5,500 students are expected in the next freshmen class, although a few thousand more than that will gain admission but decide to go elsewhere or fail to take other steps needed for enrollment.

The admissions process won't be complete for several more weeks. University officials said at a media briefing Wednesday that the admissions process is still thorough, holistic and multifaceted while remaining very selective and competitive.

"We make no bones about the fact diversity is important to us," said Ted Spencer, an associate vice provost for the Ann Arbor school. "It always has been at the University of Michigan."...

Students' files are reviewed at least twice. Some get a third review, and the toughest cases often are settled by a committee.

Student applications include standardized test scores, transcripts of class records, essays and letters of recommendation.

In using Descriptor PLUS, is a database service from The College Board, university officials also have access to an analysis that breaks down students into clusters based on their high schools and their neighborhoods.

The University of Michigan pays $15,000 a year for the service, which is new for this admissions cycle but was adopted before voters passed Proposal 2 in November.

Michigan students typically have grade-point averages of at least 3.7, but other factors - some of which can be brought out through the new database program or in essays and letters of recommendation - influence whether a student is admitted.

At Wednesday's briefing, university officials used as an example a white male student with a 3.1 grade-point average who has taken fairly tough classes. The student finished high in his class, is considered a school leader, is heavily involved in extracurricular activities and worked on a farm to help his family pay the bills.

His evaluation summary noted parents' estimated income and educational level, race and gender, citizenship and other factors. Evaluators noted that the university probably doesn't get many applicants from the student's high school and that he lived in a high-interest, underrepresented neighborhood.

The student has been offered admission, university officials said.

"We want more kids from those types of schools that have done these types of things," Spencer said.

In this case the whole students background was taken into account. Socioeconomic factors, where he went to school, race, gender, and other things. The reason why this isn't against proposal 2 is because their was no predetermined boost given to this student. He got into the school despite having very low scores compared to the average of the school, because of his background. Upon finding more about him they realized that he would still have a good chance of succeeding at the school. This system seems to be a lot better at taking a holistic view of a person.

awheio · 03-31-2007, 12:03 PM

And that's the good part of it. The system seems very well made and a good idea for a large university like Michigan. The only thing that bothers me is the idea that they're trying to nudge in an ability to once again include race in the admissions process for the sake of diversity according to statistics. I thought the real purpose of AA was to assist underprivileged people. That could have been achieved by looking at economic conditions of a family instead, including where they're located and other things that this new system will take into effect. I think that it is important to have this kind of equality and equal opportunity ---

At this point in trying to type this, I give up. You're mostly right. It is good for everyone involved for the university to be diverse as long as it isn't at the price of quality, and as long as it isn't something as problematic as AA. I just don't know how UM will handle this new system. It depends on the importance they're placing on race within the data they get. If someone is simply a minority and they get large benefits in admissions because of it - because of their race - that's AA and that's the university striving for statistical diversity, not real diversity. If the university looks at their race and correlates it with their actual socioeconomic conditions that would warrant higher chances of admission than their statistics would grant, that is fine. As long as it isn't overdone.

asteriskea · 03-31-2007, 01:09 PM

The concept of diversity is critical to the composition of a class of real students but it is only when the whole comes together can the issue of broad diversity be properly studied in terms of its parts: the students who are in a given applicant pool, admitted, and finally attend. So the HE goal of "achieving diversity" is indeed multi-dimensional and dynamic and changes year to year - and that is the way holistic admissions works. When it comes to AA and the role of race, ethnicity and gender, the U-M's "Evaluation Guidelines" and "Evaluation Procedure" provide valuable insight into how the ad com members look at each file and the information culled from the new software program. In this wider context, socioeconomic and educational background information, broken down in terms of demographic clustering, are just pieces of a larger picture to be put together. As the mission overview states "Admissions is more art than science: the admissions process is designed to consider all aspects of an applicant?s record and experience and is not intended to admit applicants solely on the basis of grade point averages, test scores, or any other single criterion.":

Quote:

The application form is designed to facilitate individualized, holistic consideration, with special attention to providing opportunities for all applicants to demonstrate the ways in which they would contribute intellectually and socially to the life and diversity of the University. The application provides opportunities for the applicants to describe unique characteristics and circumstances regarding their academic background and their community and family experiences (including with respect to their family?s socioeconomic status and education levels), as presented in teacher and counselor recommendations, written responses, and extracurricular and work activities. Throughout the process, admissions staff has the ability to consider all factors that could contribute to an applicant?s success at the University of Michigan and their ability to add to our dynamic and vibrant educational community...

Variety in life experience and challenges also contributes to the diversity on campus that enriches the learning environment for all students. Accordingly, consideration will be given to applicants with particular indicators such as parents? lack of exposure to higher education, single-parent upbringing, a deceased parent, necessary and excessive work hours while attending school, and overcoming extraordinary obstacles. Neighborhood and High School clusters that are characterized by families with limited access to educational opportunities, low income, and high interest in financial need, can also be helpful in identifying a an applicant?s socioeconomic background
Geographic Considerations

Variety in geographic backgrounds also contributes to the diversity of the class. As a public institution, the University also gives consideration to in-state applicants. An applicant may receive discretionary consideration for residency in an underrepresented in-state or out-of-state geographic area, or underrepresented neighborhood or high school cluster...

http://www.admissions.umich.edu/process/index.html

hoedown · 03-31-2007, 03:00 PM

I don't understand the cynicism here. U-Michigan values diversity, but one of the criticisms leveled at the place was that it seemed to care overmuch about racial and ethnic diversity, and paid insufficient attention to other kinds. Here's a system that is designed to make sure Michigan gets more of the students who typically haven't applied or enrolled in the past. That will mean students from different social/family/economic backgrounds, different neighborhoods, different schools. It seems to me that this quite directly addresses some of strongest complaints that some people used to have against the school.

And yes, this can most certainly benefit kids of races that would not benefit from a more-typical affirmative action program.

asteriskea · 03-31-2007, 03:21 PM

The new system really is a great admissions strategy and fascinating experiment for post AA since it is race and gender blind on two fronts - whole folder review (holistic admissions) and socioeconomic/demographic diversity.

a-dub · 03-31-2007, 07:03 PM

This is an interesting read:

http://www.brandeis.edu/offices/IR/p...aper020306.pdf

Apparently Brandeis uses the tool to identify the socio-economic profile of their most successful students, and then to better market themselves to other neighborhoods with the same profile.

So if you live in a neighborhood that has fed lots of students to Brandeis, you get a fancy pants expensive full color brochure. If you live in a poor neighborhood, you get a postcard.

"High School clusters #23 and #25 predominantly consist of students who are college-bound, academically talented, have excellent test scores and grades, and are wealthy."

"This information is the foundation that we use to tailor our messages to more effectively target, market, and recruit students from these high-end high schools and wealthy suburban neighborhoods."

I'm speechless. The fact that they would boast about this as an admission practice by posting this paper on the internet leaves me even more speechless.

Percy Skivins · 04-01-2007, 12:08 AM

"How can you not take race and ethnicity as a factor at all when you make a class. "

'Cause the voters of Michigan passed a law against doing so? Because MLK said that we should judge people only by the content of their character? Because skin color should be irrelevant to whether you are the best qualified applicant for a spot?

This whole thing is clearly just an end run against the law, which the Mich. administration didn't support in the 1st place.

In civil rights law, when the law forbids express discrimination, its also forbidding to use other criteria that are proxies for race or have a discriminatory effect - for example, say you're not hiring by race but by geography and redline those areas that happen to be predominantly minority. So I'm betting these end runs around the law won't withstand legal challenge either, or they wouldn't if we didn't have double standards on race.

04-01-2007, 12:29 AM

who gives~
just give me a decision already!!!

asteriskea · 04-01-2007, 05:20 AM

midgets - best of luck!

a-dub: since I don't want to go OT, you might want to make your well-taken point about Brandeis' use of Descriptor Plus on the "Colleges advertise for target students" thread - especially since you find this marketing-advertising/recruiting method offensive and insulting.

Colleges advertise for target students

asteriskea · 04-01-2007, 05:40 AM

On the topic of post-AA and admissions practices, it is worth looking at how Oregon State University (OSU) decided to approach holistic admissions. Students are asked to fill out an Insight Resume (Written Experiential Assessment) in addition to the main application.

http://oregonstate.edu/admissions/2004req/resume.html

According to Inside Higher Ed:

Quote:

The answers are evaluated blindly ? reviewers do not see the rest of the application or even know the name of the applicant. Gender, race and ethnicity are apparent only if applicants decide to provide the information.

Since the system was started, minority enrollments have gone up ? not an easy thing when you are a public institution in a state not known for its ethnic diversity. Gains have been particularly notable among Latino students, rising to 775 last year, up from 432 a decade earlier.

The real evidence for the program?s success, Sandlin said, is in academic performance. Skeptics of holistic admissions tend to assume that it benefits students who are somehow weaker because their traditional measures (SAT scores and grades) may be lower. But Sandlin said that Oregon State has found a direct correlation between higher scores on the Insight Resume and retention rates. Average GPA?s are also going up slightly. She said that the qualities being asked about reward determination, hard work, and other qualities that do in fact relate to college success as much as test scores.

Sandlin said that one question she frequently gets on campus is whether the holistic approach ever results in someone being rejected. People assume that those with high grades and test scores still get in, no matter what. To illustrate that this isn?t the case, she discussed two cases that raised so many issues that the university consulted lawyers...

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2007/03/02/holistic

hoedown · 04-01-2007, 12:25 PM

Quote:

I'm speechless. The fact that they would boast about this as an admission practice by posting this paper on the internet leaves me even more speechless.

Colleges have enrollment management goals that their recruitment activities have to support. It is not cost-efficient to expend the same marketing efforts on every candidate, especially at the "cold calling" point. Why not send your most impressive brochures to students who the school wants the most and/or are the most likely to become interested in the school? It's a solid strategy, and nothing to be ashamed of.

Colleges may do this for high-ability kids, for kids who share a religious affiliation with the institution, for children of alumni, for kids who live in areas known for sending large numbers of students to the school (or schools like it). I can see why at first blush it might surprise outsiders, but when you think about it it should make some sense.

The important thing to realize is that every college makes available loads of information to any student who is interested in the school. They're not being denied attention or information--and certainly not admission! Brandeis may only send a brief info card to most prospects, but every one of those prospects can go to Brandeis' website, read college guidebooks, and so on. And if they express solid interest, Brandeis is likely to send them a lot more than just a postcard.