Get informed about affirmative action before you make such bold assertions.
Whoa. I have been on message boards like this for over 6 years now and NEVER have I seen a poor white student receive the same benefit as a minority. EVER. Give me one example from this board or any other board, one, before you make such a bold statement.
It is easy to argue that white people do not understand what it is like to be a minority, and you are right, but that still doesn't counteract my logic that you conveniently ignored. How does that make giving someone an advantage (or disadvantage) due to their race right? Also, if we are paying reparations, why? How can the current generation be responsible for the sins of their ancestors.
If someone has been discriminated against, give them an advantage, no question. Assuming that someone who is a minority is disadvantaged to me is just like saying that all minorities are poor, or something ludicrous like that. I may never know what it is like to be a minority but I also don't think you can make a blanket statement like that which applies to all minorities.
Stigma is what one feels for being ostracized from a whole unit of society. Yes, racial dispairty and discrimination still exist in our society. But how does further drawing racial lines eliminate the "stigma" of being a minority. I would also contend that in today's America, while there is stigma to some degree on certain racial groups, there is also stigma associated with being poor - which, as mentioned, is conveniently ignored by affirmative action advocates. Don't lecture me on what I don't "understand." It's that kind of elitist attitude that looked condescendingly at people of different races to begin wtih. I believe in a common human nature and that we are all simply different representations of that one nature. Drawing racial lines - even for supposedly benevolent purposes - denies that truth and acts counterproductively towards achieving true racial - or should I say, human - unity, in the country and in the world.
Location: San Jose, CA --> University of Pennsylvania '11
Posts: 199
You guys are so, so ignorant.
I know the effects of Affirmative Action as "reverse discrimination" as a first generation Indian-American (subcontinent, I don't like to say "asian.") In fact, it puts me at a greater disadvantage than the average caucasian. In every scenario in society, whether I'm seeking college admissions, a job opportunity, scholarships, pretty much anything where I have to denote my "ethnicity" in a box, I know that my files will be placed in a pool of individuals which higher credentials that marginalizes my chances of getting that job.
So why, pray then, am I not bitter about this? Well, for one thing, I believe in destiny: life is unfair, it sucks, but if things were really meant to be, then they would happen.
Now, in the context of Notre Dame, I know for a fact that ND isn't myopic enough to admit underqualified minorities just to wear it on their shoulder. The adcom isn't going to admit even the most under-represented candidate in the applicant pool with 1800's on the SATs in order to boast that their margins are higher. That's ridiculous. If they were to do that, then they would be putting the student at a huge disadvantage by placing him in an environment that he could not handle academically, and they would put the school at a disadvantage by admitting somebody who would put a tax on their resources in lieu of admitting somebody who deserved the opportunity more.
You have to accept the reality of admissions in that it is a complete crapshoot and that adcoms have a distinct formula of determining who should be admitted based on whether or not they fit the profile of the school. The best way to avoid getting shafted (and unfortunately it isn't the easiest way financially, either) is to apply to as many schools as possible and to apply early to the one that is your first choice. It's so rough, cumbsersome, and unfair, but it happens. Life's a bi*ch. accept it.
"I know for a fact that ND isn't myopic enough to admit underqualified minorities just to wear it on their shoulder."
Well.. that's where the debate comes in, because some do believe that Notre Dame does this. Take a look at the decisions forum, there is quite a large gap in stats with some of the minority acceptances.
Location: San Jose, CA --> University of Pennsylvania '11
Posts: 199
right...i saw in maybe 4 cases (at most) that there were students with 26s on the ACT or 1900's that were accepted. But keep in mind; two of them were international students, and I can tell you from the perspective of somebody who has overseas relatives that the SAT standards for int'l students are MUCH different. My cousin attended the most competetive school in Delhi and was the valedictorian, yet scored an 1830 on her SAT. She'll be attending UChicago. Also, the other two admitted, from what I saw, come from remote areas of the U.S...one from Oregon and the other a Native American from NM...do not tell me that ND alone would fall for these types of URMs...ANY school would. They also had good GPAs which tend to compensate (in some rare cases) for low SAT scores, esp if they come from low-income familes who probably did not have the resources to cough up $ for prep courses unlike some of their white counterpart applicants.
You have to also keep in mind that the posts on CC DO NOT portray the reality of what happened in the admissions pool this year. There were like 5 minorities that posted on the ND board out of like 30 posters...does that mean that ND is adopting reverse racism? Not necessarily.
It has been written on CC that admissions is building a well rounded "class" of admits not searching for well rounded "individuals."
It is probably viewed by admissions that it is a better overal experience for those admitted to have exposure to diversity--more opportunities for admits to learn new culture, etc.
Diversity cannot hurt when it comes to athletic recruiting as a recruit would probably feel more comfortable seeing similar students. Offers of admission are seldom made to people where it isn't believed they will thrive on campus.
So, OP go to a college where they love you and enrich yourself in the diversity you will find yourself amongst.
I am not 100% sure what you are saying GCHornet, but one point I wish to argue is that more minorities = more diversity. This simply is not the case. Yes, to have diversity you need minorities, but what good is it if there isn't a mix? Here, as it is now, most people hang out with individuals of the same race, that is just how it is. There are clubs trying to fix that, and there are exceptions, but overall that is how it seems. Does that increase diversity? I don't know. I think I would rather have fewer minorities and have the school focus more on integration, but that is just me...if it has to be a trade off, I am not sure that it has to be one.
A second thing to consider is diversity is more than just minorities, but SES, geography, and a slew of other things. A poor white kid can be a minority, and can increase diversity.
Again, case by case affirmative action is the way to go IMO because you help those who truly need help, you can increase all types of diversity (not just racial), and perhaps if we do that there will be fewer lines of separation between races. Until we force ourselves to be color-blind how can we live in a color-blind world? It is impossible.
EDIT: As for recruiting, you really can't bring that into play. Yes, having diversity helps, but so does having an attractive student body. Are we going to only admit the most beautiful to enhance recruiting? If so, I am screwed .
Irish,
I've been in classes where we discuss AA with scholars who study it. Many schools will give points to applicants who have been disadvantaged in some way and gauge this from essay questions, the candidate's school's resources, the neighborhood the applicant comes from, etc. You can't judge by this internet forum. Besides, how many white kids on here specify whether or not they're poor?
I really think that whites argue race-neutral programs because they are unaware of the privilege that being white bestows upon them automatically. It's easy to see the world as race-less when you're in the driver's seat and race never becomes part of your consciousness.
Also, it's important to note that though minorities may have lower SAT scores (which only weakly correlate with first year grades) ND wouldn't admit students it couldn't graduate.
First of all, if a white person cant get into a school over a minority, then maybe he is just too dumb to get past what real affirmative action is all about. White people will always have better resources over minorities, even if the white person is poor.
Second of all, Notre Dame doesnt even place racial status as "important" or "very important" factor for their decision at collegeboard.com
Third of all, Why the hell are you guys arguing this? ...When there is nothing you can do or say that will change it.
And the final comment is, why are you guys also arguing this when the Original Poster "Takethecake" only has 1 post!! And it was this one!! so obviously, this person came on here to start trouble.
Mojojojo is right, y'guys. Motion to end white admittance into Notre Dame. We're just too privileged and too oppressive to society to continue reaping the rewards of hard work and dedication. I think we've all learned a lesson here, too. The lesson is not that racism is bad, per se. The lesson is that racism is OK if its racist towards a majority group. Or if it's justified by the ignorant, elitist aims of pointy-headed liberals.
Irish hopeful,
Your sarcasm is not funny. Do you not think that others of different racial backgrounds work hard? Can you imagine what it'd be like to work hard in a racist society? Also, you are misinterpreting racism. I doubt most informed whites, like myself, would say that Affirmative Action is racism. And you need to explain your last sentence, because I think it's inconsistent the rest of your rant.
I've been in classes where we discuss AA with scholars who study it. Many schools will give points to applicants who have been disadvantaged in some way and gauge this from essay questions, the candidate's school's resources, the neighborhood the applicant comes from, etc. You can't judge by this internet forum. Besides, how many white kids on here specify whether or not they're poor?
First of all, a few points is different than full AA, let's be honest. Secondly, how could you judge this based on the applications you get? If you are judging that now, you are simply being more unfair than not! Look at it this way, most colleges have need-blind admissions so admissions never sees the FAFSA. Therefore, is the only way for them to judge if you have been economically disadvantaged in your essay? What if a student doesn't put down the disadvantage? Without going into specifics, I have had some struggles in life, I have had things I could put in essays, but I didn't. Why? They are in my past, and I wanted to focus on what I brought and the future. They would have never known that I was disadvantaged in any way from my essay. I really hope they aren't just looking at the essays. Beyond that, do you really think they are looking up every person in America to figure out what neighborhood they live in? I am sorry Princess, you are a great poster, great on med school issues, but I do disagree with you here. I just don't see it happening, and if it is, it isn't being done right IMO.
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I really think that whites argue race-neutral programs because they are unaware of the privilege that being white bestows upon them automatically. It's easy to see the world as race-less when you're in the driver's seat and race never becomes part of your consciousness.
This could be true, it is impossible to ever know. At what point is it not true though? Don't we eventually have to let go of it if we are to ever live in a color-blind society? I honestly believe that AA is keeping those divisions in place and is creating animosity between races. Don't believe it...look at this thread!
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Also, it's important to note that though minorities may have lower SAT scores (which only weakly correlate with first year grades) ND wouldn't admit students it couldn't graduate
This is true, but it is hard to explain that to the good student on this board who is waitlisted with a 1600 or a friend of mine who was outright rejected with being in the top 10% of his class and a 1530. What more do these students need to do? Yes, the minorities can graduate, but it is getting nearly impossible to get in if you aren't a minority or legacy.
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Some people just do not have what admissions is looking for. Maybe you are just one of those people. Don't go blaming minorities right away.
This is a subtle way of saying that the OP is whinning and has no gripe. I disagree, and again, while I respect the heck out of you red, I don't think you should be so condescending on this one. When someone has stats which are favorable to a minority applicant and they don't get in but the minority does don't you think you have an argument. The OP obviously DID have what it took, because similar stats got someone else in. Also, I don't believe that because someone didn't get in that they don't have what it takes. ND rejects a lot of good people who have "what admissions is looking for" but we just don't have space for them all. I am arguing some of ND's priorities.
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First of all, if a white person cant get into a school over a minority, then maybe he is just too dumb to get past what real affirmative action is all about. White people will always have better resources over minorities, even if the white person is poor.
Untrue. First of all, there is no need to insult your fellow posters. Doing so discredits your post and angers others. Secondly, how can this be? Poor white students and poor black students, for example, may go to the same school and come from similar families. Where is the advantage? You say this so surely, I am sure you have research or examples to back it up.
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Second of all, Notre Dame doesnt even place racial status as "important" or "very important" factor for their decision at collegeboard.com
Are you kidding? Go back and look at the admissions results for this year and then tell me if you believe that.
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Third of all, Why the hell are you guys arguing this? ...When there is nothing you can do or say that will change it.
I wonder what the founding fathers of this nation would think of that comment. Don't ***** about the British, there is nothing we can do. No, we can do something, but it takes discussing these topics. This is not a worthless exercise in my opinion.
Do you not think that others of different racial backgrounds work hard? Can you imagine what it'd be like to work hard in a racist society? Also, you are misinterpreting racism. I doubt most informed whites, like myself, would say that Affirmative Action is racism. And you need to explain your last sentence, because I think it's inconsistent the rest of your rant.
I do agree that Irishhopeful may have been a bit over the top, but I take issue with a few things in this response. Yes, there are minorities that work very hard to get into this school, but there are also white students that do the same. What I am calling for is more of a fair chance for all, I think the advantages we give are too high. I actually have friends, believe it or not, who applied here saying they are white when they are in fact not. The reason: they wanted to know that they could get in on their own merits. Bravo. Unfortunately, for many minorities, the question has to be raised if they "deserve" to be here (which of course they do, they were accepted) or if they got in because of their race, and that isn't fair.
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I doubt most informed whites, like myself, would say that Affirmative Action is racism.
First of all, I love the jab in there against all those who don't have your views. That being said, I disagree, the only way it isn't is if you agree with the belief that a majority group cannot be discriminated against, and I don't. You are putting a group at a disadvantage because of the color of their skin, and at no fault of their own. What would you call that? You are informed, I am not (apparently) so I will defer to your answer.
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