PrincessND

again irish, i disagree that this should play a role. You want a good school...there are plenty of schools that people have heard about, that may not be the best schools.

irish68178

But it still makes a difference. Ask applicants to business schools, or graduate schools, or even jobs in business. People look for names.

One of my friends went to Grove City College. It is a great school, quite selective as well GCC: Freshman Profile. However, it's name sounds like a community college. I am sorry, but to me, it does. If you don't really know your colleges, if I am an employer, I am going to ask him if he went to a 2 year college or if it is a 4 year school. It may not be right, but it is how it is.

There are many great schools that people haven't heard of. Grinnell, Pomona, Swarthmore, etc. Do you really think they will be viewed as equals with their more well-known counterparts by people not in the know? I don't think so.

Yes, getting a good education is the most important thing, but it makes a difference with getting into grad school (I know it did for me, they told me so) and it makes a difference with getting jobs. Isn't that a big reason why we go to college after all?

MidwestParent

LizziePoo - If I were you, I would also post your question on the WUSTL forum. On the ND forum you will hear the ND voice, and will get a completely different opinion on the WUSTL forum - as it should be!

My D is currently a freshman at WUSTL. Like you, she was accepted at ND (as a ND Scholar) and at WUSTL. Her decision as to which school to attend was a very difficult one. In all, we visited each school three times - very early in her junior year, again in her senior year and visited both AGAIN after she was accepted.

I have to admit, being raised a Catholic, I was rooting for ND to be her choice. People are correct - when you say, "I'm going to ND", they say "OOOOHHHHH". But, despite the fact that ND is an excellent school, we found that most of the time this positive reaction was based on the school's football legacy and had nothing to do with their outstanding academics (which is sad!). When I tell people my D is at WUSTL, unless they are "in the know", most people know nothing about the school (which is also sad!). Ultimately, I decided to keep my opinions to myself and let her choose the school she felt was best for her. I have much admiration for Princess ND and her comments in post #9 are right on target (as always)! My D made her decision based on what she felt was right for her - as you should. She didn't let my opinions, my Catholic relatives (who nearly had the vapors when she decided not to go to ND), or those of all of my husband's Catholic patients (who would ask nearly daily - "Has she decided yet?") sway her and I am very proud of her for that. It wasn't easy.

In reference to some of the comments made regarding WUSTL, I will answer as to what my D's experience has been (mind you, this is only her experience).

1. ND does have amazing tradition and unmatched alumni connections are fabulous. WUSTL has great alumni connections, but they come from a "different place", if that makes sense. There is a great pride of the alumni in the school, but you don't see the generations of family members, etc. that have attended as ND has.

2. WUSTL and ND both have very beautiful campuses. WUSTL's dorms win hands down - they are not remodeled, they are new. One by one they are demolishing the old dorms and rapidly building new ones. As of next year, there will only be 3 old dorms left for freshmen and we thought these traditional dorms were nicer than ND's. D is in a modern dorm with double room that shares a bathroom with another double room this year. Next year she will be in a four person single room suite (four single bedrooms where the roommates share a common room and bathroom). Gorgeous! I thought the food both places was great!

3. As far as rankings go, USNEWS has WUSTL just a few slots higher than ND, but when you get to the top 20 schools in the nation out of 3,000 or 4,000 schools, does it really matter??

4. Princess ND is again correct - pre-med is TOUGH at WUSTL, but when you complete the prereqs you will be ready! They take med school admission VERY seriously and walk with you through the process, step by step. My D was a NMF, val at her hs, had great SAT/ACT scores and has never worked so hard in her life!

5. WUSTL has a very diverse student body - my D has met so many interesting and SMART kids from all over the world. It has really expanded her horizons.

6. We had heard the word "cutthroat" used about WUSTL, but had people tell us it was not so (before D accepted) and she has found what they said to be true. It is HARD, but she has found the students to be very cooperative in studying. She has study groups with other students and finds people very agreeable to helping when you are stumped!

7. The religious atmosphere of the ND campus is unmatched - as I said once before, the place just has a soul. At WUSTL you find students of MANY different religions and D has found it stimulating to be surrounded by such diverse beliefs.

8. Regarding the comments about WUSTL always having to "prove something" - I read those things (primarily on CC), but never get that feeling on the campus from the students, professors, or administration. Maybe some kids use the school as a place to go when the Ivies reject them, but frankly, WUSTL is ranked higher than some of the Ivies. Many people from CC (moderators, long time posters, etc.) encouraged D to apply to several of the Ivies - she just wasn't interested. They weren't what she was looking for in a school. So many people apply to an Ivy because it is an Ivy, which we never understood. ND and WUSTL had what she was looking for. The kids at WUSTL just seem proud and happy to be there!

In making her final decision, as I said before, my D s-t-r-u-g-g-l-e-d!! D is a combined science/foreign language major (taking the premed prereqs), but also plays in a WUSTL musical group (for no credit - just loves it). The science and performing arts buildings at ND are amazing! But, WUSTL has this P-N-P major (Philosphy-Neuroscience-Psychology) that D found fascinating. When D visited with the music professor at ND, the professor said she COULD NOT guarantee D would make the ND group (!?!?!?). D was #1 in the group in hs, was the only 3 time state qualifier at her hs, and was 3rd chair of the state group her senior year. That really took her back a little - to commit to a school and not be allowed to participate in something that means a lot to you would have really lessened the college experience for her. In a couple of classes she visited at ND the discussion between the students was more combative than cooperative. Now that could have happened anywhere, but it left an impression. So in the end, I think her decision to chose WUSTL over ND came down to the attitude of the music professor, the class atmosphere she experienced, a very uninterested student host she had at ND - also could have happened anywhere (on the post acceptance visit), the WUSTL P-N-P major, the ease of double majoring (and minoring) across different schools at WUSTL, and maybe wanting a more diverse student body.

When I picked her up at the airport for Christmas break on the car ride home I asked, "Well, after the first semester, what do you think? Did you make the right choice?" A huge smile came over her face and she said, "It was SUCH the right choice!" She proceeded to tell me that the most surprising thing she discovered about WUSTL was that she had something to learn from EVERYONE there - students and professors alike. She has had amazingly brilliant professors and described them in detail. She said she has met kids who think like no one she has ever encountered before. This is not to say that everything is rosy every day, but all in all, she is happy and that is what is important. This is also not to say that these very same things wouldn't have happened had she chose ND. She could have gone there, found a major she loved, been selected for the music group, etc. But we'll never know!

I will tell you that a tear ran down my cheek when I mailed the card back to ND saying she was declining their admission offer. D feels like she is at the place she belongs, and after all, isn't that what each student should really be after?

Milkmagn

Go to WashU. Much better than this school

irish68178

Thank you Midwest parent, that was a very informative comment. Not so much for Milkmagn, but I would be open to hear why you feel that way should you decide to post support for your statement.

PrincessND

Midwest parent, good to read your response, since you have such intimate experiences with both schools. I'm glad to hear your daughter likes WashU; I've made many friends from this school, and all of them are so smart and down to earth.

Irish, I respect your opinion, but still have to disagree on this one. I am fortunate to attend one of the top med schools, and have to say that some of the smartest students in my class went to schools without much name recognition to the average person. Actually, one of my closest friends in my class went to Washington in St. Louis and to say that those kids go to med school prepared is an understatement. She is ridiculously smart and is always finding ways to help others learn the materal. Clearly, their reputation in the field of medicine is deserved.

We've got students in my class from Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Stanford, Northwestern, Notre Dame, and other top, big name schools, yet we also have kids from smaller named schools like Pomona, state schools, and small liberal arts colleges...and overall I would say it's a pretty level playing field, with everybody holding their own so far. THere are smart people at every school, and I think that recruiters in all arenas know this.

Also, while I acknowlege that playing the name game does work at times, it is important to remember that for every discipline, there are institutions that have well known programs for that discipline, even though the school itself may not be well known. For example, the University of Chicago has the best economics department in the world, with seven (or so) nobel laurates on its faculty at any given time. Yet outside of the midwest, the UNiversity of Chicago in general doesn't have the name recognition. When I told my family I was turning down some heavy hitting, big name medical schools for the University of Chicago, they couldn't believe it. Though the Pritzker School of Medicine at UofC is fantastic, is highly ranked, has some of the best residency matches of all schools, and suits my values and ambitions, the name recognition isn't really there for the casual observer. Clearly, though, judging from how 4th years match into competitive residency programs, we are very well respected in medicine. Aside from that, I am so happy here, doing what I love with people that are amazing, and I'm glad I didn't cave under the pressure to select the school with the best name brand.

bpayne1

How could a professor guarantee a position in a music group to an incoming student without an audition, regardless of her merits. There are 2000 freshman, maybe some where 2nd or 1st chair somewhere. She probably would have made it anyway, but not being guaranteed shouldn't be a turn off, it should be a challenge to show the professor that you deserve respect.

MidwestParent

bpayne1 - As noted, the attitude of the music professor was just one factor. She did play for the professor, without knowledge she would be asked to do so, without preparation, on the professor's instrument (had it thrust at her in what was suppose to just be a casual meeting, with the statement, "Here, play") and she played very well. At WashU when she met with the music professor she was told, "Sure if you want to play you can be in the group". WashU also guaranteed her she could take private lessons (which she also takes for no credit) with a professor, not a grad student - the ND professor wouldn't guarantee that. D was also one of only seven freshmen at WashU to make a smaller select group of musicians who perform one concert a semester. She wasn't asking to head the ND group, she was just asking to participate. ND and WUStl are not places where students who want to major in music go to school. Students who want to major in music go to schools with conservatories - D intentionally avoided those schools because of the outside chance she wouldn't make the group. Most students who participate in music at ND and WashU do it because they love their instrument (even voice) and want to continue that at the college level. You are right, she might have made the group, but all the things you encounter during visits to a school ultimately help form your decision to attend or not.
ND had many, many positives - this was just one negative.

Irishcali

I have to ring in here! (Sorry midwestparent!) There is NO comparison between the two campuses with regard to beauty! Really, no bias, but I have yet to see a more beautiful campus than ND...Wash U. is nice, yes, with some nice buildings, but it is in no way on par with ND...

Dorms at ND vary a lot~daughter is in the "lap of luxury" on west quad in Welsh Fam...huge rooms, air conditioning and more.

Well, that's my input~again, two good schools, we just always felt ND offered SO much more-tangible and not.

Good luck!

justbumming

wow Midwest parent -- I applied to ND but not WUSTL. But after reading about the P-N-P major, it makes me wish I did! When it asked for my interested studies, I put; Psychology, Neuroscience, and Philosophy. That was a really nice post.

bpayne1

Well, hey she did prove that ND professor wrong then, unfortunately for him she's at a different school. Good to hear.