indiejimmy

I know USN&WR ranks ND in the Top 20 every year, but its Peer Assessment score, which is a survey of representatives from other national universities regarding the academic quality of undergraduate academic programs at competing universities, is a mere 3.9, far lower than schools within its ranking range, all of which are well above 4.0. UC Berkeley earns an incredible 4.8, and I know that a lot of this is due to the prestige of its graduate programs.

My real question here is basically the following: Are ND's weak graduate programs indicative of a lack of academic quality compared to graduate powerhouses like UC-Berkeley and UMichigan, since excellent graduate programs generally indicate the presence of top-notch professors and leading scholars? And if so, is this difference noticeable at the undergraduate level, or are the quality differences virtually undetectable at the less arcane levels of study that undergraduates typically engage in compared to graduate students?

I've been feeling lately that in passing up UC-Berkeley, a school I never gave a fair chance during April, I may have missed out on superior academics, something that was extremely important to me in making my decision. Try to disregard discussing ND's overall "undergraduate experience" and focus on a discussion of academics, since I know that ND surpasses nearly all of its peers in this respect but am still unconvinced that its academics are on par with schools like Berkeley and Michigan.

Share your thoughts, and try to give some evidence to convince me that I made the right choice.

BobbyC

look, notre dame is the most loved and the most hated school in the country. so, those who aren't a part of ND and don't understand what it is all about undoubtedly can't stand it.

think about it: the school is catholic and primarily conservative at its base, and no other school in the country is quite like that. thus, many other schools can't stand that ND can be successful being that way.

on top of this, ND has probably been one of the best promotors of itself and i think many schools hate that Notre Dame has done this so well.

be sure, if you go to ND, you are getting an education that is up there with the best.

MITpwnsnoobs69

berkeley's peer assessment score is inflated due to the trickle down from its graduate programs. although berkeley has some of the best professors in the nation, their classes are so large you'll end up just working with graduate student ta's anyway. at berkeley you'll feel like a little fish in a big pond and easily get lost in the crowd. you'll feel more like a number at berkeley than a student. notre dame is a much smaller school with a much larger endowment, which enables it to improve the quality of education for its students.

irish68178

"My real question here is basically the following: Are ND's weak graduate programs indicative of a lack of academic quality compared to graduate powerhouses like UC-Berkeley and UMichigan, since excellent graduate programs generally indicate the presence of top-notch professors and leading scholars?"

As a graduate student, let me discuss this point some. First of all, ND's faculty are top-notch. However, people don't realize how things work at major universities. Yes, there may be top-notch faculty, but will you ever see them? Do they even teach undergrads? With where I am going to grad school there are only a few professors who teach undergrads, far less than half. The grad students teach the undergrads, the professors teach the grad students. Part of the reason that UC-Berkeley and Michigan have the reputation of great grad programs is they focus on them, and in turn may not focus on the undergrads as much. I can't speak for other schools, but I know that is the case here.

At ND you know you are going to be taught by the faculty as the grad students really never get to teach. That stinks for the grad students, but it is great for the undergrads. The focus at ND is on undergraduate education, try finding that at any other top 20 school, there aren't many if any you can say that about!

Also, a bit on the peer assessment score....think, why is Berkeley so high? Yes, they may have good faculty, but so do a lot of places. I believe part of it is because of politics, and also people don't like religious schools. Let's be frank, most academics are not theists, and many believe that a religious school does not take science and reason "seriously" and therefore is sub-par. I have heard it!

Full disclosure: I went to ND, love ND, but I also transferred to ND and now am at a different school for my PhD so I have seen how things are elsewhere as well. ND is really really hard to beat for undergraduate education. In a way it doesn't fit in the Universities category, they treat education more like a liberal arts school, and I think that is good.

cornell2011

ok....first thing is first, Notre Dame academics aren't on par with a lot of places. Its a lot easier and they don't have nearly as many of the resources that other, more elite schools have. Berkeley may be large, but it also has an international reputation and devotes a lot of resources to its faculty. Additionally, is having some access to the best and brightest in the world better than having full access to mediocre faculty? I'd say so.

You should have gone to Berkeley man.

BobbyC

cornell2011... i completely disagree as you can see from my previous post. in fact, i think you just added another opinion without providing any other facts. i live very close to Berkeley and while it is certainly respected as a school, many people think of it as the place where crazy people sit in trees and people who are all about public demonstrations without understanding what they are truly arguing for

shellzie2006

What resources are you referring to, Cornell2011? Because Notre Dame has a huge endowment, recently built a $70 million hall of science (for undergrads!), and is currently building 3 new dorms and new facilities for the law school, the center for social concerns and for engineering. We also have excellent dining halls and athletic facilities (both for athletes and everyone else). Notre Dame has some of the best resources to be found and is constantly working to improve them. In addition, these resources are usually built for the undergrads, not the graduate students. ND is also putting money towards expanding the research program to encourage more undergrads to get involved with research and improve Notre Dame's reputation as a research institution.

Also, I have had some amazing professors at ND, many of which have been educated at top notch schools (Harvard, Princeton, Peking University, MIT), and some who have left teaching jobs at such schools to come to Notre Dame. Describing Notre Dame's faculty as "mediocre" is hardly fair. And it is certainly not an "easy" place to go to school. My friends at Notre Dame work just as hard or harder than my friends who attend school elsewhere (Princeton, Haverford, Carnegie Mellon).

Our peer assessment score is low, but a lot of that is from our lackluster grad program and our religious affiliation, neither of which will negatively impact your education in the least (in fact, the latter has made our theology and philosophy departments some of the best in the country). Perhaps we still aren't on par with HYP, but ND is improving every year and we aren't that far behind. I think you will get an education at Notre Dame that is as good or better than you would get at Berkeley.

indiejimmy

Thanks cornell2011 and shellzie for showing me both sides of the coin.

BobbyC

i found this quotation on here awhile ago and i find it fitting. i truly do agree with it.

"If Harvard should stumble and have to shut its doors, Yale or Princeton could, with time and effort, ramp up and credibly fill the gap. If the University of Michigan or Cal–Berkeley faced some catastrophe, Wisconsin or UCLA could hire their faculty, increase enrollment, and take over research projects without irremediable loss to higher education in America. But if Notre Dame should fail, no other institution could fully take its place."

-Harvard Professor

CCG

Playing devils advocate here but what about BC or Georgetown??? O snap! got you there lol.

BobbyC

haha doubt it

indiejimmy

BC = Notre Dame junior in a better location.

Georgetown = basically nothing more than an academic institution. its loss wouldn't be too catastrophic...

ND, however, seems to have a culture of its own that it has created, revolving around its strong Catholic identity, football history, stunning campus, and strong academics to boot. The combination of these things in one school make it more well-known than other comparably good academic schools.

BobbyC

completely agree

jasonpham

Georgetown and, to a lesser extent, Boston College, despite their Jesuit background, does not come close to Notre Dame in terms of a pervasive Catholic identity and tradition. Also, the overwhelming sense of community and the Notre Dame family, I think, would be a very difficult thing to replicate.

MITpwnsnoobs69

@BobbyC
that's an interesting quote. where did you find it?