from the University of Michigan thread, UM vs ND

[CollegeChecker]

(this was a question from an in-state Michigan applicant to UM and ND)

Notre Dame is harder to get into, but not worth paying the $51K/yr versus $21K/yr for UM. ND's ACT scores are high because this is a counterweight to ND's low peer ranking in the USNWR ranking (I believe it dropped from 25th to 30th this year). For engineering and the business schools, UM is much better. For pre-med or pre-law, ND is better, that is because they have a better system for counseling (or at least tell a kid to get out of pre-med if they don't have a certain GPA jr year).

The problem with ND is the continuing drop in USNWR rankings, and that they are having a difficult time getting any surge in applicants, even with going to the common application last year ( 13,998 applicants in 2008 versus 14,252 applicants in 2009, they were expecting a 20% increase).

I believe ND is in a difficult position like Duke, Cornell, NW, etc....that their high prices (even with aid) for middle class and upper middle class families is going to force them to reconsider how hard they want to keep trying (and spending $$$) to keep up with the HYPMS crowd.

[notre dame AL]

I am not interested in stirring the pot, so I will remark that ND is a private institution and along with that, one can expect to pay more than a public university. For that private tuition, one can also expect that class sizes will be smaller, profs more accessible (not to mention that profs are mainly teaching the courses and not TAs), and a little more individual attention than one might find at a public university. Is it justified in this ever-increasing wave of cost in higher ed tuition? I don't know. But, I can say that attending ND is very much a personal decision--one that should focus on cost, among other things (in fact, cost should be factored in at Michigan and anywhere else, as well). As our student approaches graduation this spring, I can say that ND has been worth every penny that was spent; there are no regrets!

[Ny0rker]

UM is not much cheaper than ND for OOS kids (almost the same).

[bitti1]

if the question is about UM and $$, why does the poster spend the bulk of the post about an imagined comparison to HYPMS, on unrelated points ??

if the actual main issue revolves around economics, there really can't be an answer until the fin-aide package is received, it seems to me. at that point next march/april, certainly $$ and how it relates to the product would be an excellent topic. it so happened that ND's fin-aide package for our D made ND much cheaper than our ( reasonably highly regarded ) state school.

[sm74]

What I am hearing from alot of State schools is that with cut backs in State funding it is very difficult to get any of the courses that a Freshman or Sophmore wants. And if you do get them many of them are large and crowded. I may be a bit defensive about ND but my kid has had no problem getting all his courses and I feel confident that he will stay on track to graduate in 4 years. Notre Dame is very well managed financially so it is seeing none of the cutbacks you are seeing at most State schools and many private schools.

[CollegeChecker]

U of Michigan is an exception to the cutbacks happening at other flagship state universities, UM only gets 7% of their funding from the state of Michigan.

[kevdude]

Mendoza College of Business at ND is ranked number 2 in the country, just throwing that out there.

That aside, there are so many other factors to consider than just price, rankings, and academic opportunities. It seems to elude most people that criticize ND that maybe the Catholic atmosphere present at ND is actually a major factor in considering the school. Or that the residence life system is unique, or that the Center for Social Concerns is one of the most active service organizations in the world, domestically and internationally. Or that ND sends 54% of its students abroad in some capacity - semester, year long, summer, or research grant.

And, just one quick addendum because I care, even if no one else does, we are widely recognized as having the best Irish Studies department in the United States.

So, basically what I'm getting at here guys is don't look at the rankings. You may have a vague feeling about where the schools you're applying to rank, but people applying to schools like ND will be applying to similarly ranked schools, and they know that. But please look for the place that fits, not the place that might impress the best. I'm not saying ND will definitely be that place, but don't count it (or any other school) out because of a somewhat arbitrary ranking.

[aristophanes]

CollegeChecker sounds amazingly like MiPerson80. Either he changed his name (which would be understandable) or the two were separated at birth.

[notre dame AL]

^^I initially thought the same thing--like I said, I did not want to stir the pot as it has been stirred enough over this issue!

[Sux2BUCuzUNotMe]

Notre Dame's business program is actually quite good (#2 in BusinessWeek...pretty biased but nonetheless impressive). I think the more accurate statement would be that U of M is more widely recognized for finance, whereas Notre Dame dominates public accounting.

Bottom line, though...most of my friends and I went to U of M then transferred to Notre Dame. Why?...Because we didn't get into Notre Dame originally. It's a pretty common happening.

GO IRISH!

[MechiganBoy]

Go blue!!!!!!!!!!

[prius]

Related to the comments on the ability to get the courses you want: note that Jimmy Clausen, as a junior, is just 15 credits shy of graduating, and is on track to graduate this Spring. I think you would be hard pressed to find athletes at Michigan or any other D1 school who are kept so on track from an academic perspective. That's just one example. Notre Dame is the "poster child" for high percentages of students who graduate in four years, and many, if not most, of them with double majors.

[honestabclee]

I think you would be hard pressed to find athletes at Michigan or any other D1 school who are kept so on track from an academic perspective.

How about Stanford, Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Duke, Rice, Navy, Army, Air Force, etc.? Need I go on...

The fact that ND football players graduate at the same rate as football players from Stanford and the service academies suggests that the curriculum is watered down for the ND athletes. This is because Stanford, Army, Navy etc. athletes are much more academically qualified than ND athletes.

Notre Dame is the "poster child" for high percentages of students who graduate in four years

The arrogance of Domers never ceases to amaze me. That's why Notre Dame is the "poster child" for the most hated and overrated football program in the country.

[bitti1]

what never ceases to amaze me is this: ND 'haters' play directly into the hands of the ND football program, and the television/promotional entities surrounding it. your 'hate" that you ( think you ) feel is in fact nothing more than those entities playing you like a violin.

the opposite of love ( or like ) is not hate, it is apathy. rivalries and "hate" mean you care, and ironically thru that caring it is you yourself who are responsible for the continued hi-profile ND receives.

2 kinds of people in the world, players and rubes - guess which one the ND haters are ??

[honestabclee]

^ LOL...I never said 'I' personally hated ND, but only that ND is the "most hated."

Why would I hate ND? Except for football, we don't compete in anything. Academically speaking, our rivals are Harvard, Yale, Princeton and MIT only. That's all.

The people who really are "played like a violin" are the Domer students and alums who live and die with the football team and care more about the AP and coaches' poll rankings than the US News & World Report rankings.

So tell me: are ND lovers "players" or "rubes"???