Hi, this happens to be my first post after lurking for some time on these forums, but I need to make a choice after surprisingly being getting into both Princeton and Penn's M&T program. Both parts of M&T interest me, and I'm not sure what kind of options Princeton offers in selecting a major or two. If you could offer some advice, that would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!
So I don't actually know much about Princeton, but I can tell you this: your experience in M&T will be completely different than Princeton. I have a feeling whatever you do in Princeton, even if it is a pre-professional type track (like econ or whatever), you will have a much more liberal arts education. If you do M&T, you will be doing all business and all engineering classes. Your 4 (or more) years will be very much set in stone.
It really depends on what you want out of college and what type of person you are. I'm in Wharton, and I've thought multiple times about transferring to CAS because I grew up on a liberal arts education and it still doesn't feel right that so much of what I'll be taking if I stay in Wharton is vocational, not just 'knowledge.' (I mean it's useful stuff, but...)
I know quite a few people in M&T and they're generally really cool people. But just ask yourself what you want out of college. Also, what engineering major were you planning on doing if you came to Penn?
Oh, another question that might help you decide (or me and other give advice): which school did you put as your back up for M&T, and why?
Last April I chose between Penn (CAS) and Princeton (among other schools). Ultimately, given my area of interest, I knew Penn would offer me more opportunities, and it has- I'm beginning my M.A. next fall, as a sophomore.
Although I am not in M&T, I know that it is a highly specialized program and that the students are usually snatched up by top employers, which might be an advantage for you given the current state of the economy. I personally know two people who have turned down Harvard for M&T, and they don't seem to have any regrets.
The atmospheres of Penn and Princeton also factored into my decision: Penn is a very friendly, welcoming place, where we enjoy both a tight knit community and the resources of the city. And although all students work hard, Penn is a blast.
If as you prepare to embark on your college career, you are hoping to make these next years the best ones of years of your life, I can guarantee you that Penn will not disappoint you.
This is a mom writing. Wondering what you all think about my son's choices. He was accepted into the Jerome Fisher M&T program, Brown, Amherst, Williams, and Swarthmore. Waitlisted at Yale and Princeton. Long-term dream/plans, which I think are a bit more solid than many HS seniors, are to get a PhD in Engineering and try to start a green engineering firm. While rather set on that plan, he isn't in a hurry to do it thus would ideally like to also explore other, liberal arts interests as an undergrad. If he goes to Swarthmore, where he could still take 50% of classes outside the major, he'll major in engineering. If he goes to Amherst or Williams, would major in physics and hope for MIT for grad school in engineering. If he goes to Brown, he'd be torn as the engineering major takes up 75% of your classes. Obviously, if he goes to M&T he knows what his majors woudl be. Any advice?
I understand that high schoolers should not be expected to come up with a plan for the rest of their lives, and that college should be a time to explore options. For this reason, I can understand your hesitance regarding M&T. On the other hand, I did know what I wanted to do in high school (in my case, go to medical school), and my time in college only reinforced that desire, and prepared me extremely well to do so. If your son is like me, then M&T is far and away the best option for him. There is no program in the country that combines the best undergraduate business education with a top engineering program in the setting of a well-rounded university overall. M&T students procure some of the best internships during college, and afterwards are some of the most heavily recruited students in the country. It's important to remember that it is not only the courses themselves that will define his college experience, but the informal curriculum as well--the dinner discussions, the visiting lecturers, the club responsibilities. All of these things Penn has to offer in spades, and so I wouldn't worry about him being deprived of alternative stimulation.
Incidentally, if not Penn, I would advise him to go to Swarthmore, since its engineering program is arguably the best of the LACs.
As others have posted, it depends on what you want and what you are looking to get out of a collegiate experience. M and T kids have all business and engineering classes and have pretty difficult workloads. If you are interested in engineering and want the business background for the future, going to m and t is a no brainer, especially if you want to go directly into the workplace.
I have many friends here at Penn who are doing M and T or dual degree and they have said it was an amazing experience that has prepared them for anything they wish to pursue, I would highly recommend it.
I was also admitted to M&T, which was my top choice. This does not really mean I crave a job on Wall Street but I like the program's prestige and the opportunity to keep my options open. Making things more complicated, I also received a full scholarhip from WashU. If I choose to attend M&T, I will not receive financial aid from Penn. My parents are willing to pay 50% of my tuition (their intent is to let me know that there is no easy money) and ask me to find the other 50% plus living costs. I can take out a student loan but by the time I graduate, the principal part alone will be $140K assuming 0% inflation. I figure one way to cut this down is through summer employment. I wonder whether past and current M&T students could comment on the prospects of getting a summer job, maybe at a bank? Is this practical for a freshman? Sophomore? What percentage of students get a summer job? What kind of salary are M&T students normally paid for such jobs?
Alternatively I could go to WashU to study engineering or science. They have programs such as PathFinder to advice and support honor students. There might be more opportunities for performing research in engineering which will help me to build a foundation for further graduate study. On the contrary, I probably will not be challenged as much by my peers.
Glacier: I know someone at Penn in the Vagelos program (science) who turned down a full scholarship to Washington University for the University Scholars Program in Medicine, so people do turn down full rides. Nonetheless, are you eligible for financial aid from Penn? I am guessing that you’re not and that that is the reason that your parents are consciously not paying your full tuition— in other words, they would be able to pay your tuition.
While I know that you might not like your parents’ decision to not foot the bill, I admire them for it. Many parents tell their kids that they must maintain a certain GPA or else they will stop paying tuition, but your parents are essentially encouraging you to self-motivate. By having you personally invest in your own education, you will be that much more invested in your performance and results. I view their proposition as the same as their saying that you have to pay them back for your college tuition once you earn a living, but this way would make your motivation more tangible. While I receive major financial aid from Penn, I will be paying my family back for their contribution after I graduate and earn a living. I would not have been forced to agree to do this had it not be inconceivable that I would make a large enough income to pay them back.
I am sure that your parents know that you WILL very easily be able to pay back $140,000 after you are established with a job for a few years. KEEP IN MIND THAT I BELIEVE THE POTENTIAL DIFFERENCE IN YOUR INCOME FROM WASHINGTON U. AND FROM M&T WOULD FAR EXCEED THE $140,000 THAT YOU WOULD HAVE TO REPAY POST GRADUATION FROM PENN. THE JEROME FISHER PROGRAM IN MANAGEMENT & TECHNOLOGY | PROFESSIONAL LIFE & ALUMNI
Although this might not give you the same amount of responsibility and self-motivation as the proposition your parents offered, you might consider proposing this to them: you could take official loans from your parents themselves. If you did that, you wouldn’t have to worry about the interest, not that I think you wouldn’t be able to pay the interest, but that it seems more economical in the long run this way.
Best of luck with the end of your senior year! I hope to be seeing you on Locust Walk!
experias: This info might help you in making your decision:
Why not study engineering as an undergraduate, and then go on
for an MBA?
There are significant advantages to pursuing the dual-degree undergraduate M&T Program rather than an undergraduate engineering degree followed by an MBA degree. It is first important to note that many M&T graduates consider going on to graduate studies, including MBA degrees at top programs. A substantial number choose not to do so because they find that their career progress matches that of MBA graduates. This is not at all surprising since Wharton undergraduates take the same or similar courses taught by the same faculty as do MBA students in Wharton's graduate program. Others who do go on to MBA studies are generally able to place out of basic courses (e.g., Accounting, Economics, Finance, Marketing, Statistics, etc.) enabling them to either shorten their graduate programs and/or take more advanced coursework than their peers, effectively earning a "super MBA."
A second important advantage is cognitive in nature: M&T students study both quantitative and qualitative subjects concurrently, challenging them to exercise both the right and left hemispheres of their brains on a daily basis and encouraging broad perspectives; engineering students, on the other hand, pursue more focused quantitative/analytic coursework with resulting heavy emphasis on left-brain activity and a tendency toward more narrow thought patterns.
A third advantage is quite practical: Unlike most other graduate programs,
all top MBA programs require at least several years of significant work experience for admission consideration. The quality of this interim work experience and career progress are typically critical factors in acceptance decisions. Because M&T graduates receive numerous attractive employment offers in a broad range of industries, they face the greatest possible opportunities for meaningful work experience before applying for graduate business studies. This, combined with the integrative nature of their dual-degree undergraduate program, generally places them in an advantageous position relative to their peers.
Just in response to SusieBra's last post, where she said in M&T you get to study both quantitative and qualitative subjects concurrently...I would argue that while that's occasionally true, the vast majority of your classes will be quantitative and the qualitative will be few and far between.
Yeah, definitely consider drnoeyedea's advice. Educating yourself vs. pre-professional...there's a big difference, and it depends on the person--but there is a reason I've contemplated tranferring into CAS from Wharton multiple times, and I think it's actually because I'm the second line in the above post.
There's no reason why you can't educate yourself in Wharton, I do it. Frankly, if you're looking for an education from your classes then you'll be sorely disappointed. No program will offer you a 'deep' education if you don't look past the material yourself. What you get out of it is dependent on yourself.
If I recall correctly, doesn't M&T guarantee two internship placements? One in engineering and one in business I believe? Usually at major firms too, one of my friends did his engineering one at GE.
Susie, you are right that I am not eligible to receive any need-based financial aid. My parents are not rich but they are earning enough to disqualify me. Sometimes, I use this as an argument that they should support me more but you can guess their responses.
I am talking with them about "merit-based" funding. They are flexible on this thus hopefully I can get another 10K per year from them. My total borrowing will then be 110K or 100K depending when I can get the last "merit-based" award. This is still a lot to live with so I hope to save $10K per year through summer employment. However I don't know how likely for a freshman or sophomore to get a nicely paid internship. So I wish more people could comment on this. Thanks.