181818

My son went to the honors colloquium. He told me that several of the honors programs presented their programs with an analogy to food. I am telling this second hand so I appologize if I don't say this completely correctly but I think you will get the gist. Plan II was described as a full course meal with all of the trimmings. Liberal Arts honors was presented as being for people who don't want a full course meal. Perhaps they only want the steak.... From what I gather the Plan II core curriculum is very comprehensive while LAH is more LA focused without the requirement to take a wide range of specific courses. From all that I have heard those are some awesome required classes but LAH probably suits those who prefer not to take those requirements better.

MidwestMom2Kids_

LAH works especially well for students whose major has particularly intense requirements and requires a year of study abroad. LAH provides freshman year programming, gread honors advisors, ahelpful, interesting peer group and enrichment beyond the planned major.

I am sure many of the LAH students come in with their UT math and science requirements already covered by their AP scores; they just "check those off" and then only take math and science courses they want to take or that will easily fit into their schedule.

For students whose major has particularly intense requirements and requires a year of study abroad, Plan II adds the requirements for a second major in Plan II.

It just depends on what you are looking for. Both programs are great.

181818

So to continue the food analogy, some may prefer LAH because they have already eaten and don't want to eat again (AP classes), because they are saving room for dessert (majors with intense requirements and study abroad), or because they want double helpings of the main course (double major other than Plan II) . I agree they both sound like outstanding programs. My son and I have been trying to figure out the differences between the two and this discussion has been very helpful in sorting this out. It would be wonderful to have the luxury of having to make the choice!

One question though, from what I have heard Plan II has an outstanding study abroad program. Is there a difference in this between the two programs?

MidwestMom2Kids_

University of Texas has great study abroad programs.

Both LAH and Plan II offer special scholarships for students in their programs for study abroad.

This June, Plan II had a cool 6-credit trip to Rome limited to Plan II students; it sounds like it was really great; I don't know if they do that every year or not.

schismmanifesto

As a current Plan II student let me give my thoughts:

LAH and Plan II are vastly different. It really boils down to, what do you want out of your undergraduate experience. LAH is typical of many other public university honors programs. The classes are generally smaller and more in depth on the subject matter. Students tend to be goal oriented, know what they want in life, and a large portion of the admission process is based on numbers. Think of LAH as AP courses in college.

Plan II draws in my opinion a much different student. While nearly all of Plan II students possess extremely high SAT scores, leadership positions etc.>>the intangibles. Their general attitude is much less goal oriented and in a sense the focus is on "living, experiencing, and learning in the present" Many Plan II majors haven't a clue what they want to do in life. This is primarily because they are so good at so many things relative to this point in their lives. Realistically, they are qualified to do anything they want, but they made a choice to extend their experience, to live a life defined by learning, not narrowing to one concentration, just yet. They still possess the questions that cross interdisciplinary boundaries and they still want a frame of reference that is as broad and as thorough as possible at the undergraduate level. Plan II majors (it is a major) want the perspectives gained in the post high school (post idealistic stage in my opinion) that forms new roots at this new, very significant, stage in life. A time when independence is much more likely now than it was mere months, years, or weeks ago. Plan II students want to prolong the question "What do you want to be in life" longer. In a society defined by people changing their careers more than, 5,7,10 (however many times) Plan II students want to invest their time (4years) to not being trapt or contained in a sense to one field. It is my strong opinion that very few bright minded people, with many capabilities and talents, know what they want in life. They have a sense to keep searching rather then settling. In Plan II students are forced to experience new perspectives, new ways of thinking, and almost certainly new joys they never thought possible. I won't lie, it is a risk to major in Plan II, I mean you constantly face the problem of explaining your major and getting puzzled looks on people faces like...really, thats not how the system works...you HAVE to declare a major. I say I Plan II, whenever that is doesn't concern me and if it doesn't concern you I highly recommend this program. Plan II is risky, but within the greatest risks lies the greatest rewards. With world renowned alumni and amazing profs I have rational faith (as I learned in my first year PHL course on Uses and Abuses of the Bible) that I will find what I love and love what I find. When you boil down the essence of what makes us human, especially for the students out there that love to think, a rational faith in something is one of the most inherently good things discoverable. It takes searching and it takes dedication but the reward is possible and probable if you want it...

*just another perspective from a current Plan II student

181818

Thanks schismmanifesto, it is really interesting to get the perspective of a current student. It seems that another difference may be that there are Plan II students on CC but I haven't seen any posts from LAH students. I there are any LAH students visiting the forum it would be great to get your perspective as well.

texbex

This thread has been dead for a while, but I came across this discussion on a random Google search and had to have some input, especially since I'm in the Liberal Arts Honors program and we seem to be underrepresented here. :-)

I had the same question as a freshman, Plan II or LAH. They're both incredible programs and allow you to work closely, as an undergrad no less, with some of the best faculty and advisers on the planet. I have some amazing friends in both.

As has been said, Plan II is older, so it is better known. A little history lesson: Dr. Larry Carver, the current director of LAH, used to be the director of Plan II. He thought there should be another option for Liberal Arts students who didn't want the intensive major but still wanted small classes with the best faculty, so he created LAH, or Plan I Honors. While Plan II is currently better-known, Dr. Carver is amazing and I guarantee you LAH is a good investment for the future. It's only going to get more prestigious and more selective as time goes, especially with Carver running it, so you really can't go wrong either way.

If you want an honors program that is a major in and of itself, go for Plan II. It has an actual curriculum that includes things like World Lit freshman year, Plan II calculus, and so forth. I know some people majoring in Plan II and nothing else. Both Plan II and LAH allow you to explore, and I believe LAH does so even more because it only has one set class you HAVE to take. That's a class freshman year called 102H where basically each week a professor from a different liberal arts school comes and talks about his field. It's perfect if you're undeclared because you get to learn about everything from Economics to English and everything in between.

If you want an honors program that consists of only a few required courses that is more of a minor and a complement to your other studies, go for LAH. LAH is kind of two separate programs. We have Freshman Honors and Upper-Division Honors. If you want to graduate "with special honors in Liberal Arts" on your degree, you must complete the upper-division hours as well, but I know plenty of people who decided not to bother with upper-division who had been admitted into the Freshman Honors program. Once you complete your (I believe it's still three) required lower-division LAH courses, you may start taking upper-division LAH courses if you have a 3.5 GPA or higher. You must get at least two A's and one B in these three classes to graduate with official Liberal Arts Honors.

Another thing that both programs can lead into, but LAH seems to more often, is Departmental Honors. Each department has its own honors program. Right now I am in the Liberal Arts Honors program and the English Honors program - two separate things. What that means is that I am now only enrolled in ten-person English classes with the best professors, and that I now have 3 upper-division LAH courses to complete that will also only have 10-15 people in them, all LAH-ers.

Both programs provide a wonderful small community within a huge research university. LAH enrolls approximately 140 freshmen per year, while Plan II enrolls about 250-300. I don't know how many people apply to Plan II each year, but I believe it's a little over 1,000 for LAH. When I say each program is like it's own little community - it seriously is. You really get to know most of the people in your LAH and Plan II graduating classes, and each program has its own student council, theater troupe, and music ensemble. If you wanted to (though I wouldn't advise it), you could just be involved in honors program student organizations and not even get involved in the bigger university.

Just a little plug for LAH - I've had multiple professors who have taught both Plan II and LAH classes tell us that they like LAH students better. :-) LAH students tend to be very friendly, maybe a little more outgoing than most Plan II students (again, just a personal opinion). We're (for the most part - there are always exceptions - I know some LAH/Pre-Med majors) perhaps a little less well-rounded than Plan II students as far as math goes. If you hate math, LAH is probably better for you. I'd say Plan II students are more likely to be the ones who scored 700s on both Math and Reading on the SAT, and LAH-ers are more likely to have scored a 600 on the math and an 800 on the Reading.

If you want an example of what LAH classes are like, I'll list a few. I took an LAH section of English 314L my freshman year and it was amazing. There were only 15 students in the class, we were all LAH, and we got to have so much one-on-one time with the professor. She even invited us to her house at the end of the semester and made us dinner. Another different kind of LAH class I took: There are arts requirements that must be fulfilled, and our advisers got us an LAH section of Intro to Western Music. My discussion section was small, all LAH-ers, and it was wonderful talking about Beethoven and Haydn and the greats with people who were really interested in them. I'm taking an upper-division version of History at Play this coming semester, which is basically where the instructor (usually Larry Carver) selects a period in history such as the French Revolution, and each class member is assigned a historical person to be for the class. There are debates, speeches, and such, and you must act at all times in class as if you are that historical figure.

Also, we have world-class advisers. I'm not even kidding. When you come and tour the LAH program (you'll probably sit in on a class like History at Play), you'll meet two people named Paul Sullivan and Stacey Amorous, two of the best people ever! If you're in LAH, you NEVER need to stress out about your schedule or getting into the classes you want, because they will always take care of you and have a lot of connections when it comes to getting into classes. They've gotten tons of advising awards and they really make the program what it is.

One more thing - whether you choose LAH or Plan II, live in the Honors Quad your first year! Even live in it your second. They're not the nicest dorms on campus (If you want nice dorms, go to San Jac, Duren, or maybe Whitis Court), but it's a wonderful community. A lot of the other dorms aren't social at all, but the Quad has a lot of events and you get to know so many people just by living here. Many people are also in your classes, so it almost seems to reduce the size of the university down to just a few hundred people. :-) You get to meet lots of fellow LAH-ers and Plan II-ers that way, as well as students in all of the other programs.

181818

Thanks for your insight Texbex

bustofPallas

I went to the honors colloquium as well, and although it was informative, it was not nearly as helpful as these insights from actual LAH & Plan II students. A huge thanks to schismmanifesto & texbex for taking time to write these out - this makes me extremely excited about UT, especially since my only worries were about personal attention from faculty & staff and getting lost in the massive student body.

haha UT is looking better and better every day, especially when looking at the tuition costs of everywhere else I'm applying.

I just had one question... are Plan II students able to take LAH classes that are not offered in the Plan II curriculum?

JuanEatsPandas

texbex, I already applied to plan II, and I think I might have a fairly good chance of getting accepted, but based on your thread I don't know which fits me better. I like Plan II's classes and curriculum a bit better (reminds me of my IB classes whereas LAH reminds me more of AP), but I don't know if I'm up to the task of tackling 2 majors. If anything, I would like to dedicate all my time into one major. Another problem I have is that I love Social Sciences (planned major in government) as well as math, but I absolutely despise sciences (which are a big part of Plan II). I don't know what to do....

cocoaluna

anyone know the acceptance rate for LAH please?

PeglegGrad

As of fall 2009, out of every seven applicants to the LAH program one was accepted. To provide some perspective on this number, the average class rank of those acccepted for entry in the fall 2009 semester was within the top 4% of their high school graduating class.

Longhornsg

I am a first-year LAH student and love the program. Freshman are required to take a one hour freshman seminar each week where a different distinguished professor from each department in the College of Liberal Arts lectures to the entire LAH freshman class. It is strenuous, as you are required to write a three page response to the lecture in two days, and the LAH 305 classes are very writing/research intensive, but worth the work. The LAH community is great; they really make sure you meet your fellow LAHers and become friends.

The program is very writing intensive, but if you do the work, after one semester, you will become a noticeably better writer and student.

mjb13

I'm a freshman in Plan II this year, and I also love my program. My floor in the honors dorms is a mix between LAH and Plan II (as well as BHP and Engineering) and I wouldn't say that either group is "smarter" than the other. Both are great programs and attract wonderful people... I love all the LAHers I've met, and I think that between the two groups, they're equally social. It's really just about picking the program that's right for you. The two programs seem to kind of self-select, anyway... It's rare-ish that people get into both LAH and Plan II. Usually they pick whomever they feel fits best with their group of students. I really don't think you can go wrong either way, though. In either program, you'll have great classes and make great friends. However, Plan II does make you take a few extra subjects that may not appeal to you. For instance, you have to finish a calculus sequence or take at least half of a calc sequence and take Plan II Math; the same goes for Biology, either BIO311C and D or Plan II Bio. However, everyone I've talked to loves those classes... the only unpopular one is Plan II Physics, which is supposed to be ridiculously hard, but everyone gets through it. As for LAH, I'm not sure what their requirements are, but everyone seems to enjoy their classes too. One final thing: You can get into the Liberal Arts Honors program (not the freshman program, but as an upper division student) later, I guess if you don't like Plan II. Plan II is pretty much a one-time offer; they almost never accept transfers into the major. Good luck!

Hueyeuh2

So does anybody know the avg. SAT scores to get into LAH? Where can I find these statistics?