McDonell's victory and how it will impact UVA - Page 2

12rmh18 · 11-05-2009, 12:27 PM

Thanks Dean J! S1 is a 4th year at UVA, S2 wants to go to UVA - he's aiming for the 2/3 Virginian percentage.

Btw, S1 reports that the budget impact can already be felt in the limited number of Spring course offerings (re: Sabaray's NYT link).

Ronbo1960 · 11-05-2009, 12:33 PM

Dean J, good point but of course they also could have had a 1300+ on the SAT, lettered in three sports, and been the class president as well. Your decisions as an admissions officer will always be questioned as long as the process is not well defined and that is just the way it has to be. Every admissions officer says the same three things: 1) You are more than a number (code for don’t let your low SAT score stop you from applying. 2) We value diversity (code for there are some preferences for minorities). 3) We have a ton of money to finance your education so don’t worry about the sticker shock (code for we will give you loans to finance your education). I think that just like any entity a school has a need for certain students and if you match the need you will be accepted and the school will help fund it for you. Like a lot of things in life the admissions process is not fair nor is it designed to be so. I'm sure you have had to deal with irate students/parents/grandparents when the call is "sorry, you’re qualified but not getting in." I do not envy your position.

Barq45 · 11-05-2009, 12:33 PM

Maybe I feel this way because I am a student and not a 40 year old mom but I don't see why parents arguments about wanting there kids to get into UVa should hold any weight. If their kid didn't get in its because they didn't work hard enough in high school not because some random kid from Georgia took their spot. And in any case, even if they're kid doesn't get into UVa there are a number of other good schools in the commonwealth (W&M, JMU, VCU, Tech, Mason, UMW just to name a few). What's wrong with sending their kids there?

Ronbo1960 · 11-05-2009, 01:37 PM

Barq45, I don't think it is a question of someone’s parents wanting them to go to a specific school. I think the point is that the kid from Georgia may or may not be more qualified then the kid from Virginia. The real issue is we don’t know and never will. Statistically the OOS SATs and grades are higher but does that mean that they are higher than everyone who did not get into UVA from NOVA? For that matter is the kid from rural Virginia more qualified then the kid from NORVA who was top 13% not top 10% and gets eliminated because a lot of students from his/her school want to go to UVA that year? That is what makes Dean J's job what it is. Very difficult.

(P.S. And yes Barg45 when/if you have a child, who has killed themselves in high school, meets the published statistical criteria and does not get into his/her choice school you will feel differently.)

*Dean J* · 11-05-2009, 03:15 PM

Many more applicants than we can take are capable of coming here and doing beautifully. Our applicants know they were supposed to take challenging courses, get good grades, be involved, take the tests, etc. and so many of them do those things. We just can't take all the qualified students unless you want UVa to turn into a place the size of ASU, OSU, and University of Florida. I think we can all agree that we won't really be UVa anymore and no one would let that happen.

I can understand residents of Virginia thinking that are entitled to a spot at a public college or university in the state, but I can't understand the thinking that they are entitled to a spot at UVa specifically.

I have to agree with Barq's statement about our sister schools. We are part of a tremendous public college system in this state. I'm a little taken aback when anyone shows disdain for Virginia's state colleges or implies that there are only two acceptable options here.

Quote:

meets the published statistical criteria

They are not criteria. They are statistics.

sabaray · 11-05-2009, 03:48 PM

Virginians are fortunate to have so many options- and I think students find when they visit that just because a school is ranked higher doesn't necessarily mean it's the best fit for them. In fact, I know students who - *gasp*- have actually chosen to attend JMU and Tech when also accepted to UVA. Each school is going to have strengths and weaknesses and I think the key is finding the best fit for you.

Ronbo1960 · 11-05-2009, 03:49 PM

Dean J thanks again for you reasoned response to the process. I also agree that we are blessed with several excellent schools in Virginia, however I disagree that anyone thinks they are "entitled to go to UVA" simply because they live in Virginia. If I live in Virginia and my daughter is qualified to go to UVA (thanks for your honesty regarding many qualified people don't get in because of the selectivity and the fact that it is not a very big school) then why in the world would I be okay with someone not from Virginia getting into the school when part of my taxes (whether it be 13%, 8% or 2%) go to funding the school? That same argument was used by VMI for well over thirty years for excluding woman from the school. They said the exact same thing you just said regarding their position on not admitting woman. "There are many fine schools in Virginia that are excellent. Why don’t they go to one of the other schools?"

Secondly, I understand that the information posted on a colleges site are “statistics” and “not criteria” but exactly what do you expect potential students to use when assessing their credentials against those at the school? Should a student with average SAT scores apply to Harvard because there is a .000003% chance they will get in to the school? I know that you can't give a specific set of criteria but can't you look at the "statistics" and gauge where you stand?

WuTangForeva · 11-05-2009, 08:04 PM

As an OOS student, I'm so grateful to be attending this school -- the educational options in my home state sucked so much (and sucked especially in terms of science and research).

(btw I do intend to immigrate to Virginia after I graduate)

Quote:

2) We value diversity (code for there are some preferences for minorities). 3) We have a ton of money to finance your education so don’t worry about the sticker shock (code for we will give you loans to finance your education).

The international students admitted tend to be quite more qualified than domestic students, even OOS ones. To the tons of overqualified students applying from Beijing, UVA is a safety while they look at options like Cambridge.

Also, I only had to take out under a $1000 in loans this year (and I'm OOS) -- AccessUVA is pretty good at giving grants to fulfill need.

WuTangForeva · 11-05-2009, 08:06 PM

Part of the problem is that the US education system (fiscally) is still stuck in the feudal age of the Articles of Confederation era -- nearly all the other nations at the top of the international education rankings have nationalised, highly efficient education systems, while we're stuck with backwater state-funded, local-funded education systems.

If education in the US were nationalised, we wouldn't be having this OOS v. IS debate

MechWahoo · 11-05-2009, 08:47 PM

But Wu, can you major in whining in Asia?

novaparent · 11-06-2009, 12:50 PM

As a nova parent I'm with Barq45. There's this idea out there that getting into u-va, especially from nova, is like getting into harvard, and it just isn't true. From what I've seen the top ten percent of nothern virginia high school students with decent SATs and extras generally DON'T have a lot of trouble getting into u-va, while those without these numbers do. This is really no different than the top california schools, and it's the way it should be since u-va is a top public university. there's plenty of room at plenty of other perfectly good state colleges in virginia for kids who can't get into u-va.

i have kids who went to u-va and ones who went elsewhere in state because they couldn't get in. and they're all fine.

barboza · 11-06-2009, 01:55 PM

This is pretty worrying. I'd like to see UVA going private so that OOS and international students have the opportunity to attend our school.

Barq45 · 11-06-2009, 02:04 PM

I fully agree with Barboza, it seems like UVa as an institution will only be going downhill from here unless the state reverses its treatment of UVa or the school goes private. There's a growing number of top students in this country (and throughout the world for that matter) and the top 25 or so schools are vying to get the cream of the crop students. By limiting UVa's financial resources (by contributing so little), the state is hurting UVa as a public institution. And even on top of that, mandating more in-state students to make UVa easier to get into for in-staters (essentially taking weaker students when peer schools are taking increasingly better students), it seems like things aren't looking too hot from a concerned and interested student's perspective.

Let's face it, UVa isn't exactly some great research powerhouse. A lot of this school's rep is based on providing a high caliber education and resources to strong undergraduates. Once this goes away, UVa is just another state university. Currently, Cal-Berkeley is increasing their out of state enrollment and Michigan seems to be stepping closer and closer to privatization. Meanwhile, UVa is moving closer to being the next JMU. As a student and future alum of UVa, I hope this doesn't happen.

barboza · 11-06-2009, 02:06 PM

Lol@the JMU comment...

But seriously, before we know it, we're going to be falling behind in rankings against the likes of Michigan and UCLA, who's already tied with us. I'm so sick of hearing that there needs to be more Virginians at UVA - no! What we need is more international students and global recognition because we are a top university.

Barq45 · 11-06-2009, 02:11 PM

Hopefully the new president will take steps to move UVa up as a research university and will be concerned with keeping up the selectivity and traditions.

It seems to me that people are just saying: We don't need to maintain UVa's identity and selectivity, let's just take anyone from Virginia (and no a 4.0 weighted GPA and 1300 aren't anything to be really proud of) instead of looking to see who will make the most of UVa and will contribute most to this school.

Parents of in-state students who complain that their kids kill themselves to get a 4.0 and 1300 SAT score must be joking. In this day and age neither of those are particularly impressive. There are a huge number of students here who worked hard to get 1450+ SATs and get straight As in all advanced courses. These students didn't have problems getting in. If a kid can't get in, it's not the school's fault they should have applied themselves more in high school. That's not just UVa, that's college admissions in general for top schools.