McDonell's victory and how it will impact UVA - Page 3

Ronbo1960 · 11-06-2009, 03:41 PM

Barq45, do you really think UVA (or any school for that matter) is admitting students based solely on their achievements? Do you really believe that all of the OOS students or international students are "better" than those from Virginia? To quote Dean J “statistically that maybe correct, but it is not a criteria.” Many of us in Virginia have also grown tired of OOS students complaining about the education they are getting (partly at the expense of taxpayers in Virginia) at one of our state schools. To quote Dean J again, “perhaps one of the fine private schools” would be a better choice? I've heard they offer great financial aid packages.

aglages · 11-06-2009, 04:59 PM

"partly at the expense of taxpayers in Virginia"
^^^^
How partly? Do any of these kids contribute anything to the local economy? How about their parents and visitors? This refrain from VA residents is getting old.

Ronbo1960 · 11-06-2009, 09:16 PM

So if people from Virginia went to school at UVA they would not spend money while visiting? Quite frankly so far I’m blown away by the lack of anything resembling a coherent defense on why people in Virginia need to subsidize your education. I would expect much better points from students who attend one of the best schools in the country then "I'm tired of people complaining." How about OOS students are getting a good deal at UVA and don't want to give it up? That is at least a rational point. "I'm tired of discussing it" is as lame as it gets. I’ll give you another decent argument. A quality school needs a diverse student body and how in the world can you get that if all you do is take students from Virginia? At least that is a relevant point. I’m starting to wonder if your all not right and the school is going down the tubes. If you’re tired then take a nap. If you have something resembling a defense of your position then follow the words of your founder.

"Errors of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it."

guillaume · 11-06-2009, 11:32 PM

The diversity argument doesn't even hold water. There is plenty of diversity here in Nova. Kids from all over the world. So I don't see how another white upper middle class kid from another state whose parents can pay the high OOS tuition bill is going to add diversity to UVA.
I take issue with the idea that kids who are not admitted should have worked harder. I know of many brilliant kids (with high GPA, full IB, valedictorian among others) who were not admitted. The reason? Not enough spots, period. So how do they decide who to admit between 2 excellent candidates? Who knows? That's the admin's prerogative. They can do what they please. Dean J has been very helpful and we all appreciate it but in the end, it's still a mystery how they decide.

guillaume · 11-06-2009, 11:33 PM

Sorry, I meant Adcom's prerogative.

Ronbo1960 · 11-07-2009, 06:05 AM

Guillaume, The diversity I’m talking about is much broader than what the US Government calls “diversity”. Most Americans do not realize that people from different parts of the country (although of the same race) bring unique perspectives that you may not have been exposed to in the past. For example, I would guess that someone who is white from Montana probably does not thing the same on every issue as a white student from New York City. They will agree and disagree on different points, but the discussion is where learning takes place. At some point each sees the issue from someone else's point of view. It is kind of like this discussion we are having now. An OOS student sees someone like me as some whiner from Virginia not someone who is raising a family and is concerned about his tax dollars and if some student from Virginia is getting the short stick. I learned from Dean J that the majority of funding does not come from the state. You don’t need to match a government label to bring a unique perspective to the table. Unfortunately the “perspective” of a student is not measurable with a simple box to check on an application and therefore can’t be turned into a nice power point slide for the Board of Visitors or the (Government) to show how well a school is doing on the diversity initiative.

Lastly do not take offense to the statement about “working harder”. It bothers the students who get into top schools that they may not actually be the “best” candidates and perhaps they got in for some other reason. They and we will never really know will we? So they do what you see here and say stuff like “they had bad SATs, poor grades, not enough ECs”. I on the other hand worked harder. It’s like the thing filthy rich people say to explain why they are rich and you are not. They simply worked harder than you! Dean J has already stated that many well qualified students have been denied for some reason which they will never know. Dean J has repeatedly posted that you can’t let your acceptance into this or that school define who you are as person or for that matter a student. He is right once again; it just was not in the cards.

aglages · 11-07-2009, 08:50 AM

"How about OOS students are getting a good deal at UVA and don't want to give it up? :
^^^^^
Great school, not a great deal financially. 3x higher tuition for OOS students.
How much more should UVA charge to compensate for your 8% or whatever it is? Certainly these OOS students are also contributing something to the economy.

Coherent defense of what? UVA not lowering its standards to admit everyone in VA because their residents contribute minimally to the university's budget? Or is it the whining about how the admissions process isn't as "transparent" as you'd like? I don't think either needs to be defended.

BTW - Thanks for your contribution to the OOS students.

Barq45 · 11-07-2009, 10:36 AM

On the issue of working hard enough to get into UVa, truth of the matter is UVa is not an easy school to get into, but it's not super difficult to get into either. While to have a good shot at UVa you need to take as many advanced classes as possible, get good grades, and do relatively well on the SAT, it's not impossible. That's because there are so many spots open at UVa (this school has more than 12,000 undergraduates). Basically what I'm saying is that if you're strong enough of a candidate you will most likely get in. Many of the parents who complain that their kids are at JMU or (insert random school here) had kids who simply weren't very strong candidates. Regardless of where you live, if you are strong enough you will get in.

Also, if your a parent and you child only has a 4.0 weighted GPA (the grade inflation in NoVA and other places is high with weighted credits), this school may not be the best fit. UVa is a tough academic school where the kids with the very top SAT exam scores and 4.5+ GPAs think the school is hard. Please note this isn't intended to scare anyone off, but it's the truth of the matter. And the academic difficulty is what keeps things interesting.

WuTangForeva · 11-07-2009, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Let's face it, UVa isn't exactly some great research powerhouse.

I dunno, it kinda looks that way (at least in the sciences). Especially at the graduate level. Have you like seen our environmental sciences department? And the e-school research labs? The e-school does quite a lot of theoretical research (surprisingly, since they're all about the applied sciences). There's like an entire floor in the MSE building filled with computers dedicated to modelling catalysts, explosions and things like that.

WuTangForeva · 11-07-2009, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Many of us in Virginia have also grown tired of OOS students complaining about the education they are getting (partly at the expense of taxpayers in Virginia) at one of our state schools. To quote Dean J again, “perhaps one of the fine private schools” would be a better choice? I've heard they offer great financial aid packages.

No private school ever gave me that much financial aid. I don't know about the immigration statistics, but I think admitting OOS students helps bring talent into Virginia. Oh, and it generates Interstate Commerce.

guillaume · 11-07-2009, 01:05 PM

Barq, your reasoning is confusing and at times contradictory. In any case, a friend's son (from nova) who is a freshman at UVA said that the IB program at his high school was so hard that he feels he is breezing through his classes at uva. So no, there is no grade inflation around here and yes the students work extremely hard and yes like most schools in the country AP/IB grades are weighted which is only fair and UVA does recognize them.
The admission criteria are still a mystery that we have to live with.
This same kid had 3 friends with the same stats who applied to the same schools (UVA, Georgetown, Vanderbilt) and whose outcomes were completely different from his. He was admitted at UVA while the others were waitlisted, but one was admitted at Gtown and another at Vanderbilt. As we all know, it's pretty much a crap shoot.

coase · 11-07-2009, 01:44 PM

Looking at the naviance scattergrams from my kid's school, UVa seems very predictable. High school GPA is a very strong predictor of whether an applicant gets admitted. If you are right on the bubble, of course it looks like a "crap shoot," but it is surprising just how regular the patterns are. Different colleges stress different things (W&M's scattergrams look like the results of a game of darts), so it is not surprising that outcomes differ across schools.

At my kid's school and the neighboring school, over two dozen kids were accepted to UVa last year. With so many accepted, I cannot take seriously the claims that many brilliant kids are not getting in. Yes, some people develop later than others. (Some sixth round draft picks make it to the NFL Hall of Fame while many first round picks are complete busts.) But the idea that UVa is denying acceptance to brilliant kids is far-fetched.

I have not done undergraduate admissions but I have done graduate admissions. No doubt, many unsuccessful applicants thoiught that the process was completely random, but they would not feel that way if they were privy to our deliberations.

*Dean J* · 11-07-2009, 02:04 PM

We have a program today, so I haven't had time to monitor all of this, but I have already seen a few posts where comments have been attributed to me, but I have not made the statements in the quotes.

I'll be back on Monday to look over recent posts more carefully.

Ronbo1960 · 11-07-2009, 04:45 PM

I want to state again (as I have done so previously) that the OOS students at UVA are no doubt top notch but anyone who says that the school could not be filled with top notch students from Virginia is dreaming, bottom line. To say that some people don't get in because those admitted are some how more qualified is ridiculous. No school including UVA admits only the best applicants. They admit applicants who they think will match a need at the school or bring something to the school it does not have.

The argument that OOS somehow poor money into Virginia is also ludicrous. Unless your family is spending about 5% of their earned income you are not matching what someone from Virginia is paying to the state every year. To those who point out that OOS students pay so much more than in state students I ask why then whenever I have talked to a student from OOS they say the same thing regarding the “bargain” they are getting coming to Virginia? It normally runs like this, “Why did you come to (UVA/JMU/William & Mary) from New Jersey (NY/Maryland, etc)? The answer? “This is great school and you can’t touch the quality education I’m getting here for the cost.” If you feel it is too much then go somewhere else. Virginia will have a tough time carrying on without you but I think we will survive.

Lastly you are right about one thing. It is not “only not as transparent as I would like it to be “it is completely cloaked in secrecy. That way the schools can do what ever the feel is best for the school. Those who get in will say it is because they “deserved it” those who do not say they were robbed. We will never really know will we?

Lastly I understand the facts. UVA, like all schools will do what it pleases. I’m amazed that so many people seem to think that someone who lives in Virginia dose not have a right to question how one of MY STATE schools selects students.

aglages · 11-07-2009, 05:06 PM

If the process is "is completely cloaked in secrecy" how can you be sure that:
"anyone who says that the school could not be filled with top notch students from Virginia is dreaming" and to "say that some people don't get in because those admitted are some how more qualified is ridiculous"? You evidently are are only speculating because the process is too secret for you to KNOW for sure.

"Unless your family is spending about 5% of their earned income you are not matching what someone from Virginia is paying to the state every year."
^^^^ Interesting fact. How much of your 5% goes specifically to UVA? Do you think the extra 20K that OOS students pay for tuition might come close?

BTW - Thanks again for your contribution to the OOS students.