Confederate Flag in Dorm Room - Page 3

runmanstl · 10-15-2009, 02:15 PM

Haha! St. Louis Cardinals, Rolling Stones and Star Wars.

ag54 · 10-15-2009, 02:53 PM

LOL! That's funny Hunt

MattsMomFL · 10-15-2009, 03:14 PM

The confederate flag thing does give me pause, but I'm of two minds. Im a direct descendant of Fitzhugh Lee, Robert's nephew & Lighthorse Harry, Robert's father, paternally. I am also Jewish - my mother is a 2nd generation Lithuanian whose mother (my grandmother) was sent here as a little girl in the late 1800's to escape the increasing pogroms.

My daughter is applying to W&L. If not for the family connection, Id probably have her run in another direction upon hearing that, especially as down here in South Florida, displaying the confederate flag is definitely intended to be racist.

I respect the OP's question and I imagine if I were a part of the university community, Id no doubt get involved in an effort to have the picture removed from the website. As long as the wrong message could potentially be sent, it's inappropriate, and that's from the mouth of Robert E Lee's very, very grand-niece.

williamsdad · 10-15-2009, 03:18 PM

runmanstl: Post #20
"Is there anyone on this board that has ties to W&L? I truly am not interested in revisiting the Civil War, or debating whether racism is involved in the display of the confederate flag."

Runmanstl, you seem to be posting under the idea that because you are the OP, you have the right to guide or control the discussion of this thread, and that everyone should be posting only to answer your original question. I joined the thread because it's title was intriguing. I wondered if someone was seriously objecting to the confederate flag being in a student's dorm room. Debating whether racism is involved in the display of the confederate flag is certainly pertinent to whether the flag is offensive, and some people in CC post because they like to debate ideas with others. Opening a thread does not make you its owner, it just means you opened a topic for discussion, and other people are free to follow the discussion wherever it takes them. If you ever become a Super Moderator on CC, you might be free to tell other people if they are contributing something to the discussion or not, although I've never seen a real Super Moderator do so. If you ever do become one, I doubt there will be many posters left for you to boss around.

More on your other "points" later.

LHS11 · 10-15-2009, 07:40 PM

Quote:

If my AP history knowledge is correct, I'm pretty sure the war started because the south was suffering economically, and it blamed the north. Then it wanted to leave (Which IMHO, had every right to.)

I thought the slavery issue only became part of the war with the Emancipation Proclamation.

If I'm wrong, which I very well could be, (3 years since APUSH), forgive me.

As stated before, the south sees the flag as something entirely different than we do. (After all, they were fighting for states rights. Unfortunately, slavery just happened to be one of those rights.)

And just because African Americans find offence in it is doesn't mean we shouldn't acknowledge it. They are not the only ones to suffer discrimination in the US. (Irish did too, and very many immigrants from our southern borders, legal or not, are treated as if they are not human either.)

I did quite a bit of research on this last year and you're entirely right.

To the OP, I think Williamsdad's post was in place. Your question seemed to be "Are people at Washington & Lee racist?" and he answered that according to his son, a minority, W&L is not racist. You seem to only want to hear people saying that W&L is racist just because somebody (a minority no less) had a NC flag with the confederate battle flag on it in their room.

And now I'm done with this thread. I'm just simply stating my two cents on it.

beautyistruth · 10-15-2009, 08:40 PM

As a recent grad of W&L:

1. It is the south. The confederate flag is around. You'll mostly see it on the back of trucks (generally not owned by W&L kids) and in the rooms of kids from Alabama. Some of it, I think, is a joke. W&L is a "southern" school, and kids who go there sometimes accentuate their southernness. A lot of times it is pride for their home region (if the midwest had a specific flag, I might have had it in my dorm room). There are also a LOT of TX flags around.

2. I wouldn't really say there's a lot of racism around. The school's somewhat segregated, but more out of choice and it's not very stringent. I had friends of all different races, and it came up jokingly sometimes, but it never really mattered. I never saw anyone persecuted for it. Sometimes I felt left out because all my friends who were black, Indian, korean and 1/256th Native American were always invited to brunches with the dean and I never was.

I think your fears are unfounded. There's a lot of pride in the South partly because of Lee, but it's mostly pride for Lee (because he was truly a great man).

runmanstl · 10-15-2009, 10:05 PM

beautyistruth,
Thank you for sharing your first-hand knowledge of W&L...it's really helpful to hear from someone who has actually attended the school.

Could you expound on your comment, "I had friends of all different races, and it came up jokingly sometimes..." Were you teased about your friendships with non-whites? If so, why? Is it considered unusual to associate with Asians, Blacks, etc?

Thanks again for your observations.

beautyistruth · 10-15-2009, 10:35 PM

No, it was more that they were making fun of themselves. No one, as far as I know, has ever made discriminating comments to me about race, it's more self-deprecating. It's not considered unusual at all, except in that non-white is certainly a minority. It would be easy to have all white friends, but it's not particularly normal. I think it could be easy for a minority to feel left out, but only if they wanted to feel that way (i.e. segregating themselves and then complaining that it's segregated).

But then again, I'm entirely descended from Western Europeans so I know nothing about being a minority, may not be the best person to ask.

HorseRadish · 10-16-2009, 11:08 PM

What a recital!

I think I am gong to sport a Confederate flag in my room for the next quarter at the school I attend.

Time to honor "the South", and rise above the rancor of race and rant and acknowledge our common history and place without continued reference to acts of intimidation and ad hominem attacks without the merit of incidence and due process.

Pizzagirl · 10-17-2009, 09:18 AM

Quote:

You seem to imply that the confederate flag is comparable to a swastika as a symbol of evil, and I think you are exaggerating quite a bit.

Oh goodness. I, as a northerner (a white northerner, fwiw), think of the confederate flag exactly the way that I'd think of a swastika flag. Something that has no place in society except in a museum and something that makes decent people cringe.

The flag stood for the institution of slavery. It's complete revisionist history to pretend that the civil war had nothing to do with slavery. I'm glad to see Hunt tell it like it is. It's done to **** off Northerners as part of those "oh us poor oppressed Southerners, we'll rise again" mentality. Why Southerners think they're "showing us" by flying Conf flags is beyond me. All is does is reinforce the yee-haw, redneck, white trash stereotype. Stop ruining it for the many, many, nice, kind and decent Southerners.

klio33 · 10-20-2009, 12:31 AM

Just some food for thought. I am a senior here. I know a very patriotic South Carolinian who used to have a confederate flag hanging in his room. He also shared that room with his black fraternity brother. His roommate didn't seem to have an issue with it. They were good friends and I never saw any hints of racism from him. I personally think its tacky and should be avoided, since it can offend many people, but I don't think it is generally associated with racism on this campus.

We do have some problems with race, but as was mentioned before it mostly results from self-segregating on both sides. The Greek system doesn't help since many minorities and international students choose not to join (often for financial or cultural reasons). They usually instead get involved in the multicultural organizations and host their own events. So it seems like the groups are separated but technically anyone is invited to any social event. Even the non-Greeks can come to Greek parties and often do. People just have to make more effort to break out of their cookie cutter groups. But, even if people tend to flock together (which happens at most schools anyway), generally W&L students are friendly and will interact with you if you make the effort regardless of what race you may be.

runmanstl · 10-20-2009, 09:02 AM

klio33,

Thank you for responding to my question. It is so helpful to hear from a current student at W&L in my quest to better understand the campus dynamics.

Hunt · 10-20-2009, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Why Southerners think they're "showing us" by flying Conf flags is beyond me.

Well, your reaction (typical Yankee) is what a lot of them are looking for.

kfnpemai · 10-20-2009, 12:58 PM

I was originally from Boston (35 years) and moved to VA 25 years ago. I have a son at W&L.

What you have to realize is that the Civil War is part of Virginia's heritage. Just like the Revolutionary War is to the north and Boston in particular. Battlefield state parks are everywhere and small towns depend on civil war tourism for their budgets. Confederate and Union flags fly side by side. Also, battle re-enactments are very popular and both whites and blacks participate.

That being said, it has been my observation that there is very little segregation in the Virginia. All colors and nationalities live in a homogeneous community setting and people are accepting. I can not say that about where I grew up where folks were segregated by color as well as country of origin.

Finally, my son was set on going to a school in the north. But after visiting several colleges, he decided to stay south of the Mason-Dixon because in his words "people were friendlier". And I have to agree. I even enjoy talking to strangers on the street now (something that I would have never done when I first moved here).

So make what you want of this student's demonstration of the Confederate flag. I doubt that he intended to be a racist symbol. More likely, a demonstration of pride in his southern American heritage.

FLVADAD · 10-24-2009, 01:28 AM

I am also a northerner transplanted in the south. Also, as many who camp out here already know, I am the parent of a student at W&L. I basically have two observations relevant to this thread:

First, kfnpemai is right on the money. The worst, most pervasive instances of racism I've ever encountered was while living in the north. The segregation and institutional forms of racism I observed there was incredibly entrenched. Having experienced it firsthand, I find it quite entertaining to hear northerners speak so condescendingly regarding racism in the south. Sure, the south historically engaged in the most egregious acts of racism this country has ever seen, no question about it. But if we are talking about real time, meaning the present, the south is much more progressive with race relations than most places in the north.

Northerners, however, firmly believe they are more enlightened, which ironically, makes the issues there all the more insidious and culturally embedded. Think about it. Beginning in 1980, which was the first time it happened in our country's history, blacks began migrating south in far greater numbers than those heading north. I have also observed that there seem to be far more integrated neighborhoods in the south. In fact, I never lived in one until I relocated to Virginia about 10 years ago. It's been a wonderfully refreshing change. In the north, it's still rare in many places to see different races of people actully living next door to one another in a non-transitioning neighborhood. Frankly, I'll take seeing the occasional confederate flag in the back window of Bubba's pick up truck any day over living in the miserably segregated north again.

Secondly, regarding W&L, there's nothing to fear but fear itself. W&L offers a fine, welcoming community. Perfect? No, of course not. I haven't come across any school that meets that definition. Also, I understand the initial reluctance given its historical associations. However, that's all most of that stuff is - history. Associating W&L with what the old line south once was, is a akin to saying the Cleveland Browns are today, a force to be reckoned with on the basis they won a league championship in 1964. Everyone knows that's false no matter how many times they drag Jim Brown back to town. It's not 1964. Similarly, I think many have missed out on a great school due to the inability, perhaps unwillingness, to distinguish the past from the present. And the harshest W&L critics are always those who have never even set foot there.

Please, do yourself a favor and don't let the "southern" sterotypes play on your imagination. Go see it for yourself before passing judgment. Talk to the people there. You will find that your worries about confederate flags and a racist, backwoods, old south mentality are unsupported by reality. Like I've said in other threads, maybe they have me completely hoodwinked, but I have encountered some of the nicest people I've ever met at W&L. I'm talking not only about the students, but their parents as well.

And oh, if it helps, I'm not white.