momrath

Let me ask the question another way. Are you an American citizen? If yes, you get a double benefit -- international experience without international admissions status.

Both are world class for English. I'd give Williams the edge for theater. It's a small department, but well funded, and there are many performance opportunities even for non-majors.

unregistered

Amherst does not live in the shadow of UMass...UMass is located on the outskirts of the opposite side of town, we barely notice its existence unless we want something from it (though it does bring amazing food and great festivals to the town).

mistofolis

hmm somehow im leaning more towards Amherst after reading..

@momrath: im not an american citizen... so technically im an intl student with a intl experience.. haha.

soo which colleges are included in the 5 consortium ?

st.arnie

Well, the consortium's made out of Hampshire, Smith, Mount Holyoke, Amherst and U Mass Amherst. Smith and Mount Holyoke are two of the remaining Seven Sisters(top-notch womens colleges with a long-standing tradition). Hampshire is more of an experimental college, more of rich kids with a hippie bent. You can take courses at any one of them which counts for credit(there's a free bus which goes to each of them).

Dad2

icantfindaname: actually, picking Swarthmore over W/A is more akin to choosing Stanford or MIT over Harvard. All are wonderful schools, S is just a bit more distinctive in its academic/intellectual rigor (e.g. more per capita nobel laureates than the "competition", perhaps fewer per capita bond traders).

nceph

mistofolis- I hope you will have a chance to visit before making a decision, whether that's next spring after you've been admitted to both, or sooner. There are some differences that may only appear in an in person visit.

My S fully expected to prefer Amherst over Williams for a number of reasons prior to visiting, and I expected him to also. He liked the 5-college consortium and especially the idea of two women's colleges nearby. Upon visiting and talking to people at Amherst, he felt the consortium would be less of a draw for him than he had orginally thought it would be. The tourguide at Amherst said it was kind of a pain to take the bus to the other campuses, even though it was free. I know people who've gone to Amherst and have taken full advantage of the consortium and found it a really valuable addition to the experience, but my S felt that the logistics (like added complications in scheduling classes) might discourage him from taking advantage of it based on what the tourguide said. You will know yourself and how likely you'd be to take advantage of the consortium.

I think the choice is largely a matter of personal preference, and a lot of it boils down to a general "feel" of the campus and the school, something that is hard to capture through statistics and basic information about the schools.

mythmom

Williams sends more kids to grad school in English and has a strong theater program with a summer theater lab attached to the Williamstown Summer Theater Festival, a summer theater featuring professional and name actors.

That said, the consortium makes Amherst's programs outstanding as well.

My S chose Williams over Amherst purely on gut instinct. He liked the insularity -- he wanted that intense bonding experience and knew he wouldn't miss "civilization" as momrath accurately called it.

He is also arts oriented and a music major and Williams offered a much better program for a composer/string players/singer.

That said, the consortium does offer incredible opportunities. However, he is kind of a lazy slacker boy and probably wouldn't use to opportunities, and it is a bit time consuming for someone who has to practice every day and play in ensembles in addition to academic work.

This are very personal choices.

I am sure that had he landed at Swat, Amherst or a host of other LAC's he would have been happy and successful. However, Williams fit him like the proverbial glove.

Not an athlete -- just a kid who wanted a very tight community. He is already hoping to be a JA.

However, I can imagine many students preferring Swat or Amherst or Pomona or Wesleyan or Midd or Vassar. You get the idea.

My D preferred Barnard because she wanted a LAC and she wanted NYC. Good thing she is a girl!!!!

interesteddad

Come on...

Fall 2007 Enrollment:

Amherst College 1,683
UMass Amherst 25,873

It requires a willful suspension of disbelief to say that UMass doesn't cast a long shadow over a town with a population of 35,000. That's like saying that Williamstown isn't really remote and mountainous.

interesteddad

mythmom:

Good explanation. Really, picking a liberal arts college is a two-step process:

a) First, you have to select a liberal arts college over a larger school. I strongly recommend considering a liberal arts college, but it's fair to say that their are pluses and minuses to all sizes.

b) Once, you you've decided on an LAC, you'll probably be pretty happy at quite a few in any given range. However, there are signficant differences. Students should, IMO, literally sit down with pencil and paper and list what they are looking for in an ideal college: location, social scene, campus culture, dorm organization (neighborhoods? freshmen mixed with upperclass? racial theme housing?), etc. etc. Start trying to pin down what you are looking for, then you can explore the options in a range of colleges to find the best match.

For any given student, it could be Williams. It could be Amherst. It could be Swarthmore. It could be Pomona. It could be Wellesley. It could be Carleton. It could be Davidson. And every one of those decisions could be perfect for an individual student and wrong for another. It just all depends on how things are prioritized on that pad of paper. For example, if an annual low temp of 50 degrees is a priority, then there's no way around it. Williams is an unacceptable choice and Pomona looks like a winner. The individiual preferences drive the decision-making.

momrath

misto, The admissions rates for internationals is very low at both Amherst and Williams. That isn't to say that you won't be successful -- Thailand is a good start -- but statistically the chance is low. You should definitely apply to both, plus some less selectives.

You should also focus on the best way to present yourself in your application. Neither Williams nor Amherst interviews so what you send is all they will know about you. Essays and recommendations are critical. Think about what your life experience would offer to the campus community and make sure that gets communicated, not directly but by inference.

If you are seriously involved in theater you should put together a performance tape and a theater package. Small LACs welcome extensive backup materials (within reason) so don't hesitate to show case your accomplishments.

unregistered

interesteddad, I don't think you have spent a lot of time in Amherst, because if you had you would absolutely see how wrong you are...but what is difficult to understand? UMass just doesn't have a big presence in the town. Amherst is located near the town center, UMass is on the outskirts of the other side. It in no way negatively impacts the Amherst experience, but can be an asset (bringing in good food, etc.)

mistofolis

sadly i won't be able to go visit them before / after applying. it is just too expensive for my family to do so.
Im actually Korean so the chances of me getting in is even lower. I am aware of all those overachieving asian (particularly Korean) kids that I need to distingish myself from.
I am planning to apply to many more LACs with lower ranking and perhaps a more willing pocket to dish out money.

really, thanks for all your contributions! although it won't make up for the visit, i think this is a valuable way of learning!

mythmom

Dad2: I think there are wonderful reasons to choose Swat over Williams: the fabled academic rigor, its Quaker heritage, its political engagement, its campus, and its proximity to Philla.

However, stereotyping the Williams students are less engaged or interesting is not accurate and not a good reason to choose Swat.

None of the kids S knows fit the stereotype you invoke: they are philosophy, English, history, bio, and physics majors. A few are economics majors and they are pairing their major with a concentration in environmental studies.

Williams has the typical LAC population. Okay, I'll give you the athletic prowess of 1/3 of the student population according to interesteddad's figures.

But the kids are quirky. They do theater, music, art, outdoorsy things. I haven't met one kid whose main goal is getting into I-banking and becoming rich. I'm sure there are some, but that is NOT the side of them they show, nor does the adcom select for those kind of kids.

And there are many reasons to choose Williams over Swat. S's good friend just did.

If Swat is number one on the Boalt scale for academic rigor (it is), Williams is number two (it is.) One and two for hardest schools in the US to get an A at -- and UofC is further down on the list as are all the Ivies. Not so much of a difference there.

Campus? S preferred Williams. I know many would prefer Swat.

Political engagement? S is political, very left leaning, but in a quiet, quiet way. Williams suits his personality.

Williams music department is three times the size of Swat's. Okay. Philla. and consortium gives more opportunities. No doubt. S is too lazy to use them so he wanted everything all in one place.

Philla.: I'll give you that. It's great.

Swat is such a wonderful place it is not necessary to mischaracterize another school to burnish its sheen. It is shinier without doing that.

When I was in high school I wanted to go to Swat. Life intervened and had other ideas. My kids weren't interested for whatever reasons they had.

interesteddad

Amherst, MA population 35,000
UMass Amherst enrollment 25,873

Dad2

mythmom: no arguments with your insights.