Pawn_H7

Yeah, I was going to point out that I that there were TA's at Williams too. ...but I don't think that all TA's at dartmouth are grad students. Either way, I know for a fact that absolutely no Math professors take the time to grade their own students work.

limetime

Does Dartmouth generally have a larger class size, or is it pretty much equal in both sizes? I'm also split between Dmouth and Williams. :P

Pawn_H7

Williams- 14
Dartmouth- 16

Pawn_H7

Williams- 7:1
Dartmouth- 8:1


...I don't think these data are very meaningful...

HorseRadish

I was accepted to Williams, Princeton, Stanford, Chicago, etc, but was rejected by Dartmouth, Bates, etc., but this does not mean anything.

Williams was interesting in that it has no fraternities, it has history, dedicated to education and finds itself apart from the doldrums of civilization, and most importantly, dedicates itself to the liberal arts concept of education wherein we find ourselves within this campus.

I love Dartmouth, and it is a great college. For me, Williams was a better fit.

Your selection will define you and articulate what you are.

Best wishes and Cheers!

Corbett

Come on. There are nominally undergraduate "Teaching Assistants" at Williams and other LACs, but their role is far more limited than the traditional TAs common at research universities. The differences are apparent from reviewing the Williams TA guidelines:

Grading: A Williams TA can "never be used to grade examinations or quizzes where the evaluation is subjective or even borders on the subjective". A Williams TA can only mark answers as right or wrong, essentially acting as a human ScanTron machine.

Labs: A Williams TA can "assist faculty in running labs", but cannot run a lab alone.

Tutorials: A Williams TA can provide tutorial sessions to other undergraduates, but only on a "voluntary, supplemental" basis.

Dartmouth TAs appear to have a lot more responsibility. It seems evident, for example that Dartmouth physics TAs are expected to take responsibility for all aspects of lab work, including setup, taking attendance, supervising students, grading lab assignments, and keeping grade books. This is far beyond the role of a Williams physics TA, who would simply act as an extra pair of hands for the prof running the lab session.

Similarly, the Writing TAs at Dartmouth "meet with each student for one hour each week, diagnose individual writing weaknesses and prescribe strategies compatible with each student's learning style"...the Instructors "rely on the TAs to keep them abreast of their students' progress." The faculty at Williams (or other LACs) are simply not going to rely on undergraduate TAs in the same manner.

akitaabby

I don't think a lab will be too fundamentally different if a TA is running it versus a professor. It would make a difference if the TA is actually teaching the class, but in the case of these labs, I would find it relatively unimportant.

There's not a wrong choice between Williams and Dartmouth. Good luck!

mini

"Come on. There are nominally undergraduate "Teaching Assistants" at Williams and other LACs, but their role is far more limited than the traditional TAs common at research universities."

Well, I shoudd hope their role is more limited. The TAs at Dartmouth are selected from among undergraduates from all across the U.S. (and around the world) for their knowledge, experience, and commitment to their subject matter. That's why they are there! The same cannot be said at Williams.

You can assume (I do) that the Dean at Williams put out his guidelines because of fear (or experience) that TAs were taking on too much. Regardless, let's get rid of the myth that there are no TAs at Williams; there are, and they are far less experienced that those one would meet up with at Dartmouth.

I don't think this would be a reason to choose one over the other (as I said, I'd choose Williams, between these two). But applicants and acceptees shouldn't be subjected to this mythology.

DadofB&G

A "TA" in common parlance is a graduate student who assists the course professor, generally by teaching and grading discussion sections, while the professor gives the larger lecture.

As I understand the above posts, at Williams, the school chooses to call some undergraduate assistants "TA's," although as Mini points out, they certainly should have very limited roles.

We may be getting into some fine rhetorical differences, but I assume that at Dartmouth the TA's fit the traditional definition - they teach sections with some oversight by the professor. I believe Williams does the same with Art History.

Two points. One, it sound like at Dartmouth (with 9 graduate programs that require teaching), and obviously at the majority of large research universities, the use of graduate TA's is more common than at Williams. There is really no comparing an undergrad assistant with a teaching TA.

Two, Mini's comment about how the TA's at Dartmouth are a very select group begs the question of how effective they are at teaching - I doubt they have been selected on that basis, and, in fact, they must learn to teach to earn their PhD.

I think that on those two points it's fair to say there's a difference how teaching is undertaken between a very selective LAC, as Williams is, and a very selective university, as Dartmouth is.

Let Dartmouth explain it: Ask Dartmouth - Academics

BalletGirl

It is very difficult to evaluate these great options. In part, this is because you have a limited experience base with which to make comparisons (e.g, quarter system vs semester system; frats vs. no-frats). You should visit both schools, if you haven't already done so. If that is not possible, flip a coin. It is much more likely that your satisfaction with college will depend not on which one you go to, but on a host of factors for which you can't foresee or control. Check out this:

Barry Schwartz: Why Selective Colleges--and Outstanding Students--Should Become Less Selective

On size, I am freshman at D and have found that I wouldn't want a school smaller than Dartmouth. BTW, this TA vs. non-TA discussion on this thread is nonsense.

Good luck.

kenflyken

just as BalletGirl said,
is the TA or non-TA or limited TA role an issue?
i doubt that most people will mind the fact that a graduate student will be helping them out with labs or giving some introductory lecture every once in a while--certainly, i don't mind. i should only be an issue for larger universities where most frosh classes are directed by TAs: now that would be worrying.

i'm also deciding between Dartmouth and Williams. it's really tough for me since i really love Williams for the art history program and the extensive opportunities open there, but at the same time i cant imagine myself in academia (teaching art history). i'm more of the economics/finance, typical Wharton applicant in that respect. so i'm not so sure if the art history part alone is worth sacrificing Dartmouth's alumni base, larger town (which i prefer), the D-plan, and better job placement (at least internationally).

i feel like i'll regret it either way:
1) I choose Dartmouth. i'll probably be thinking that I could've been at WCMA or MMoCA and maybe receiving the opportunity to curate my own exhibitions. but i'll be happy with the strong econ/bio departments..maybe receive research opportunities there.
2) I choose Williams. i'll be blown away in art history. but i'm certainly at loss when i return home to Thailand to find jobs (unless I go on to grad school...which is a possibility...although an uncertain one given the economic/financial situation).

any Williams alum who can speak about their art history experience--if its really as good as it sounds?

momrath

ken, Williams art history department really is as good as its reputation. The point that you're missing is that Williams' economics and biology departments are also excellent. Your access to internships, career counseling and alumni/ae networks would be equal to Dartmouth's. Williams kids do very well in graduate admissions in all three disciplines.

Thomas Krens, for example, a member of Williams' famous art mafia, got an MBA in management at Yale then went on to run the Guggenheim for twenty years.

You are right however about international prestige and recognition. Dartmouth wins hands down.

python38

Williams is in a prettier location.

Just my £0.02.

Ephman

I obviously have no idea how a Williams degree would be viewed vs. a Dartmouth degree in Thailand (considering not that many people -- outside of the type who hire Ephs or admit them into grad schools -- in the US have heard of Williams, I would be shocked if many in Thailand knew anything at all about it), but keep in mind that Williams does have one of the best development economics programs in the country (including a masters degree -- in fact, your interests really coincide perfectly with the only two grad programs, and two of the greatest undergrad curricular strengths, at Williams, presuming that if you want to return to Thailand a knowledge of development economics would prove useful). Williams also has a superior math program, which is just as important, if not more so, than econ if you hope to go into more traditional finance.

Perhaps you could reach out to some Thai alumni of the Center for Development Economics (and with a google search I'm sure can find a few) to see how Williams helped (or did not help) their careers. And if you do end up in grad school (which in finance / econ / business is generally a good idea), obviously choosing Williams over any school, including Dartmouth, will not hurt you in the least.

And here is at least one apparently prominent Thai economist who went to Williams as an undergrad. Again, maybe someone you could try to reach out to.

http://www.tdri.or.th/en/cv/pakorn.pdf

bcash

Oh I don't think many people in Thailand have heard of Dartmouth either. They are quite similar except for the Greek scene at Dartmouth, which really puts me off. And maybe Dart is a little more isolated?