Debate on Ivy League Application

WannaBYalie · 10-25-2009, 11:45 PM

So I'm a sophomore and have been debating for two years now. Last year I did public (an Oregon form of debate, similar to parli), and this year am doing LD. I would greatly prefer to switch back to public but my coach says that Yale and other prestigious colleges won't care about having a good win record in public. They only respect forms of debate like LD. I just placed 2nd at the one of the largest tournaments in Oregon, but my I've placed first in every tournament I've debated public at. (you have a partner in public, btw).

So anyway, my question: how would a college like Yale view a good Public debate record?

STMoore · 10-26-2009, 03:38 AM

Do you mean public forum debate? If so, that's become the most popular form of high school debate in the US and is very prestigious. It's now one of the most competitive events offered by the National Forensic League. It's attracted competitors in very large numbers because it requires presentation skills that are relevant in the real world and small schools can participate effectively along with the large ones.

velleity · 10-26-2009, 04:59 PM

Well, from what I gather, debate people in general tend to do well in Yale admission.

Vaeliant · 10-27-2009, 09:50 AM

Hm. LD is considered more 'prestigious' on the circuit, but, on the local level here, PFD is far more popular and far more competitive. LDers have become one person Policy debaters; just with less time and a weighing mechanism. Just my 2 cents on that, lol.

This is sorta off-topic, but is there any way one could be 'recruited' by YDA? How good would you have to be, and what events would be preferred (Aside from Parli, which isn't really offered at the high school level)?

jodessky · 10-27-2009, 07:10 PM

On the same note (sorry if I'm hijacking), where should debate accolades be listed? I have a whole bunch of them, and I was figuring I could put them on a resume. However, I've heard Columbia isn't too fond of resumes, and I don't know Yale's standpoint. Also, does anyone know how doing well at the Yale Invitational tournament would affect admission prospects more than other tournaments? I do Extemp.

Vaeliant · 10-27-2009, 09:15 PM

Lol. I assume you're Jared Odesskey, then. :P. (I'm an extemper as well)
But yeah, I'm wondering that as well. If I say 'semi-finalist' finalist at Wake Forest/Emory/GMU/Yale, etc, will colleges understand the prestige and difficulty that entails? Or is it just all based off of NFL Nationals? Like, how do you signify that a tournament is prestigious?

IRJunkie · 10-28-2009, 06:11 PM

Preface: My opinion isn't the law, but it is a qualified one. I placed 2nd in Public Forum Debate at the '09 NFL Nationals.

The (really) prestigious debate tournaments are: Blue Key (Gainesville), Glenbrooks (Chicago), Emory (Atlanta), Harvard (Cambridge), TOC (Louisville), CFL Nationals, and NFL Nationals. Between the two national tournaments, NFL Nationals is widely seen as more prestigious than CFL Nationals.

Don't waste your time listing local and state-level debate accomplishments; they mean nothing. If you've placed well on the national circuit, do list those, but don't list so many that it bores the admissions officer. Yes, admissions officers know the difficulty of certain tournaments, though their knowledge is generally restricted to the ones noted above.

Winning the Yale tournament is no different than winning any other national circuit tournament. The winners of Public Forum Debate at the Yale tournament last year were both deferred SCEA and rejected RD.

No debate team recruits except for the University of Kentucky, which offers full scholarships to all NFL Nationals debate finalists.

rocket6louise · 10-28-2009, 06:25 PM

As a state runner up in public forum, I know it will help in admissions
the majority of PFDers are at great schools, Including uchicago and brown.

Our state's extemp champ is at Harvard, runner up at Yale

I'd say debate is good no matter which you do

I think state tournies are just as important as Nats(i've been to Nats 3 times though, so I think that backs up my state experience)

Vaeliant · 10-28-2009, 07:44 PM

Hm. Kay.
I'd say that isn't necessarily the debate that has led those people to good schools but rather that the same qualities that make them good at debate make them good at academics, essay writing, SAT test taking, etc. (especially extempers

).

Mm. I agree with what IRJunkie said, just because states can vary widely. My own state isn't that 'legit', but we've done fairly well on the circuit these past few years.

I've been in finals at a couple of tournaments (only one 'national' tournament, but I've only been to one this season, and there are 5 more to go that are pretty big for IEs and extemp).

Did you just list your placings? Well I guess that's a bad question to ask, but did you just say:
"2nd Place (PFD) NFL National Tournament 2009"
etc? Or did you add anymore to that?

IRJunkie · 10-28-2009, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Did you just list your placings? Well I guess that's a bad question to ask, but did you just say:
"2nd Place (PFD) NFL National Tournament 2009"
etc? Or did you add anymore to that?

Just that. I didn't want to dilute the weight of that award by surrounding it with a bunch of far less prestigious awards.

Vaeliant · 10-28-2009, 08:01 PM

Right. Makes sense.

Thanks a ton! You've cleared up a lot of questions, lol.

MissRoark · 10-28-2009, 11:15 PM

As a national circuit policy debater applying to Yale SCEA, I sincerely hope that the admissions committee knows the difference between policy and other styles of debate.

JHS · 10-29-2009, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Don't waste your time listing local and state-level debate accomplishments; they mean nothing. If you've placed well on the national circuit, do list those, but don't list so many that it bores the admissions officer.

IRJunkie is thoughtful, and knows infinitely more about competitive debate than I do (which isn't hard), but this advice rings wrong to me.

There is a myth on CC that nothing but top national honors matter to admissions people. I do not think that's true at all. Maybe nothing else matters as much as top national honors, but lots and lots of people get admitted to places like Yale who are not stars anywhere but in their own communities. Don't discount your own accomplishments because other people's accomplishments seem more impressive. With holistic admissions, someone who did well in, but did not win, a state tournament, could easily be admitted while the winner of some "prestigious" tournament was not. It's the whole, not just the individual parts, that matters.

Furthermore -- and again, I don't even know whether this is true with debate, in any of its forms -- in many cases competing on a national level requires financial resources beyond those available to most applicants. So, while admissions committees certainly respect the achievement represented by national honors, I am sure they are also mindful that many applicants did not have an opportunity to compete for those honors.

That doesn't mean, of course, that you should put a laundry list of 30 tournament results in your application. IRJunkie is right that it makes sense to edit things down so that your level of achievement is shown clearly, and that your best accomplishments leap off the page.

IRJunkie · 10-29-2009, 05:26 PM

Upon reconsideration, I agree with JHS. If you don't have national circuit awards, go for the local and state competitions, but I'll stick with my previous advice: don't make a laundry list. It dilutes the weight of your award(s). If you do have national circuit awards, however, do NOT list local and state competitions, as you should want the admissions officer to concentrate on your more impressive and prestigious award.

rocket6louise · 10-29-2009, 08:20 PM

MissRoark-god I hope so too
I pray that i don't get mistaken for a speed reading policy kid
I want to be seen as a real orator